RED lights read this....

[Nick]

[color=red]The following has come from Kentish times 3rd may 2007.[/color]


Transport for London has - at last - come out and said what I and other cyclists have been talking about forever - that obeying red lights when riding a bike can kill you.

Ok, it was a "secret" report, but now it's out, let's trumpet its message and save lives and, in particular, women's lives, writes Kate Bryson.

The TfL study reports that 86 per cent of women cyclists killed in London between 1999 and 2004 were in collision with a lorry. By contrast, lorries were involved in 47 per cent of deaths of male cyclists.

Tragically, the death rate among women cyclists has increased since the report was completed, with two killed in collisions with lorries within 24 hours last month.

The study states: "Women may be overrepresented in collisions with goods vehicles because they are less likely than men to disobey red lights."

As a woman cyclist (and motorist) I am not surprised. I have often seen women timidly hugging the kerb as lorries swoosh past; or patiently waiting in the fumes next to a row of red-light-stopped traffic before making an obedient hand signal to turn - even though this means taking a hand off the bars at the very moment all their strength is needed to control their machine. Being unsure and unclear is dangerous. Men are bolder. At junctions they make an assessment, hand signals are forgotten and, if they can get far enough away from the nearest vehicle, they'll jump the red.

It may not be what the road minister likes but it probably keeps more of them alive.

To date, the history of road design has been, for the most part, aimed at making life easier for the motorist. If, as this report suggests, that means deaths cyclists should challenge that.

What does it matter to motorists if they see a cyclist go through a red light? Annoying, perhaps, but imagine what the cyclist feels - as has happened to me on several occasions - when, setting off with the traffic from a red light, motorists have turned left across me having "forgotten" to indicate.

I've had a few "sorry, love" shouts from the window but that wouldn't have been much good if I had ended up under their wheels.

One quarter of cycle road deaths are caused by vehicles turning left across cyclists.

We are vulnerable every second we're on the road. So we should overtake queues of stationary vehicles on the right, and dominate the central space of junctions where everyone can see you and eye-to-eye negotiation is more logical than blind obedience to the law - even it the drivers hate you for it.

It's the one who doesn't see you who will do the real damage.

It's not just cyclists who break the law. Pedestrians don't always wait for the green man and motorists drive in cycle lanes.

And a friend suffered a split bowel after a passenger opened a car door into the cycle lane.

Of those who tut-tut at the thought of cyclists being so disobedient at junctions, I can bet not one rides a bike. Try it. Within 10 minutes, they'll be convinced that staying alive is more important than anything else.

That doesn't mean there are no rules of the road for cyclists - they should thank courteous motorists who give you a wide berth, or drop their speed to crawl behind you as you slowly pump up a hill when there's no room to overtake and respect those who DON'T shout rude, leary comments out their windows - and always, ALWAYS, give way to pedestrians.

Deliberate law-breaking is not to be indulged in lightly but I've yet to get a ticket.

To fellow cyclists who have, I say: "If you're not paying enought attention to spot the cops, you're not paying enough attention to jump the lights.

KATE BRYSON



[color=red]Your comments please[/color]

Nick

[Sylv]

My comments: that's a bit bollocks. As if riders needed even more incentives to jump lights ...

Of course if you park yourself aside a lorry where the driver is sitting two meters high, there's every chance he won't see you when the lights go green. That's not rocket science. Most lights have advanced lanes for bikes and that's where the problem lies - half the time drivers protrude partly or completely on it - not to mention the motorbikes / scooters who think it is their territory.

If a vehicule is parked in an advance lane I'll move ahead of them even if I have to move over the lane, to make sure they will have seen me (and also realise they are in the wrong - sometimes I'll delay riding off by a few seconds). That is if I assess that the lights won't go green whilst I'm doing this. Maybe females have less fearlessness to do this but I don't think they are safer by jumping the lights!

[Andrew G]

I agree largely with Sylv. The report on radio 4 (cycling spokesman) said that in general women cyclists tend to stay to the left at lights so get squashed by the lorry/bus as it turns left. I also try to stick myself in front of the car in the advance box if the junction is not the biggest/best.

Since Christmas when I started cycling to work I'm amazed that I seem to be practically the only one who stops at red lights, most of the others go straight through. Even if edging across or going half, then half it's still not safe.

How can you complain about poor driving from cars if you aren't sticking to the rules yourself. If you get knocked off at a juction by a driver using his mobile phone whilst driving how can you expect to get sympathy or argue with justification if you were only there because you jumped a light?

[Bo-Gilly]

My experience is that cyclists who go through red lights do so, not because it's safer, but because they can't be ar$ed to wait. In the same way some can't be ar$ed to indicate left even though I'm crawling behind them waiting to turn left myself but not wanting to cut them up.

I have on occaisons had to slam my car brakes to avoid hitting cyclists jumping lights, I've never had problems avoiding collision with stationary cyclists.

Quote : " To date, the history of road design has been, for the most part, aimed at making life easier for the motorist. "
I think recent history suggests the complete opposite.

Quote : " What does it matter to motorists if they see a cyclist go through a red light? "
It matters. Annoying motorists is not the way to win their sympathy.

Quote : " It's not just cyclists who break the law. Pedestrians don't always wait for the green man and motorists drive in cycle lanes. "
It is perfectly legal for a motorist to drive/park on a cycle lane that is marked by a broken white line.

Quote : "Of those who tut-tut at the thought of cyclists being so disobedient at junctions, I can bet not one rides a bike. "
Well there's a lost bet.

It's worth considering the comment made to this article on Times Online

Quote :

" There are gender differences in the cognative ability to perform spatial orientation rotation.
Perhaps women a less likely to realise they are in a dangerous position.

Cathy Colless, York, UK "

[Elliot M]

pretty much agree with comments here.

the article doesn't really consider the pedestrian's point of view -- certainly annoys the hell out of me when i'm crossing on a green man and people ride through at full speed.

[Phil L]

Cycle lanes are great in principle if cars cannot enter them but this [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A3158327#2]BBC web page[/url] outlines the different types of lanes. So if it is an advisory cycle lane, then it is okay for motorists to share it with us as long as they are being "safe". What is the definition of safe - they haven't knocked a cyclist off? Is obstructing a cyclist in the lane considered safe?

Advanced stop lines (the green bays at traffic lights) are my big bug bare. These can become over-crowded not just with cyclists, but scooters and motorbikes, and the occaisional taxi, or bus who has deliberately pulled up into them. When the lights turn green its like the start of Whacky Races and god help any pedestrian who has "jumped" the pelican lights . According to this [url=http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/community/stoplines.html]City Police web page[/url] it is an offence for other vehicles to stop beyond "Advanced Stop Lines". So crossing this line when the lights turn red is considered the same offence as crossing the stop line at a standard traffic light junction, i.e. receive 3 points in theory. Though in practice I have never seen anyone done or warned for this, and sadly even seen a City Police car pulled up past the line (unncessarily). It would focus a lot of motorists minds if reminders of this penalty are put on clear signs attached to the traffic lights.

As for cyclists commiting offences - the [url=http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/28.htm#5]Highway Code[/url] lists penalties for offences including dangerous cycling!! £2500 fine - a price of a decent bike .

[David Lombari]

Agree with most of above. I find it really hypocritical for us to jump reds if we expect other road users to obey the law. And it always seems to be riders wearing helmets! mmm...........

[-Adam-]

I think the most important thing is to look over your shoulder and make eye-contact as much as possible with the motorist. That way you both acknowledge each others presence. Unless the motorist is an arse then usually they will respect your being there.

I ususally find when at the front of a queue of lights i will look at they driver of the car behind me, and when i have there attention, point whic way im going. Safer than signalling while riding off and trying to turn as mentioned in the article. I often get gestures of thanks when i do this as they appreciate your doing your bit.

Sometimes i don't even bother going to the front of a queue at the lights, and just wait behind the last car waiting. I think that is the safest option as you then have time to ride defensively as you turn or go straigh on at the junction as the car behind you cannot have failed to notice you.

Cheers,

Adam

[mrP(Boonen)VT]

[quote]Of those who tut-tut at the thought of cyclists being so disobedient at junctions, I can bet not one rides a bike.

[Will]

Was also mentioned in The Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 695668.ece

[Alan M]

An interesting thread, particularly for city cyclists - for me, almost never cross the red light, although there are times when it is safer to do so than not, never position yourself on the inside of high sided vehicles or buses at TL and for all others, if you have to be on the inside eyeball the driver and smile, works wonders, and, if possible always get to the front before the green and dominate the front of the queue but watch out for the change in lights, and if on the inside be prepared to slow down to the the speed of the car on your right that has noticed you, and even dive for the pavement if you begin to fear being cut up.

[Hal]

Interesting thread, I agree with the comments above, if you want respect from drivers/pedestrians you need to earn it by obeying the rules.

As such this raises a question for me when I am sitting at the lights being passed by light jumping cyclists. Should I shout at them? Something like, "the light is red, that mean stop!". I am a bit too meek and would probably have a very sore throat when I arrived in the office.

H

[adrian]

[quote]An interesting thread, particularly for city cyclists - for me, almost never cross the red light, although there are times when it is safer to do so than not, never position yourself on the inside of high sided vehicles or buses at TL and for all others, if you have to be on the inside eyeball the driver and smile, works wonders, and, if possible always get to the front before the green and dominate the front of the queue but watch out for the change in lights, and if on the inside be prepared to slow down to the the speed of the car on your right that has noticed you, and even dive for the pavement if you begin to fear being cut up.

[Mike I]

I'd like to say that Ms Bryson's article is the biggest pile of tosh I have read in a long time, but I get to read some pretty offensive stuff at work from time to time. It's not far off though. She seems determined to concede the moral high ground to the motorist; unfortunately, in doing so, she concedes it for all of us.

Maybe we should invite her out on the CR so she can find out how to deal with other road users safely, confidently and legally. At the moment I suspect that her riding fits none of these descriptions.

Outraged of Tooting

[Nick]

I have forwarded a reply after reading some of your comments.

Will post her reply if I get one.

Nick