Any advice for beginning a structured training programme?
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Re: Any advice for beginning a structured training programme?
by kieran » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:45 am
Hi Sarah, just a word over the debate over strength training by Toks and Marek, this reflects a wider debate in the cycling world with many trainers like Ric Stern (who goes for a scientific approach) against it, also the Australian track coaches usually recommend cycling to build up strength rather than gym work, but many traditional coaches advocating it as part of a training plan. So its really up to you to decide, have a google around the internet.
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Re: Any advice for beginning a structured training programme?
by Robh » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:56 pm
If a book told you to jump off a cliff would you do it? 
There's no one on this forum qualified to give advice. The nearest might be Huw who's doing a coaching course.
Rob
P.S
Here's a view of lactate threshold from a Swedish guys who has spent over 20 years testing athletes and patients.
Working in this field for over a quarter of a century I had the pleasure to get inside views n all different ideas and attempts to use lactate in sport and other related fields.
As every body on this forum , we got influenced by the basic works of Fletcher and Hopkins ( 1907 ) and finally got the real answer with the Nobel price of Meyerhofer and Hill.
They actually never were able to proof but rather proposed the first part of the aerobic /anaerobic model , which is still the dominant model for many types of training ideas and testing theories..
In short , as lactate was a chemical substance easy to test, lot's of theories started to use lactate as the reason of different "limitations" which took place during exercising.
Lactate is and was blamed on :
fatigue ( what ever this may mean )
muscle cramps. side stitches
post exercise muscle soreness
oxygen deficit and possibly some more ideas.
Every day and in every TV sport session the journalist and often the retired champion from the particular sport will blame "lactic acid " for the performance drop or some type of reaction we can see on a hard working athlete.
The original thinking was clear:
As soon the oxygen supply was dropping or was getting low the body would , as a negative byproduct , start to produce lactic acid , which than would produce the above possibilities.
So as less O2 would be available as more lactic acid the body would produce and the goal of so many different training ideas was to be able to either avoid lactic acid production or at least try to "tolerate" more lactic acid.
Even the sport nutritional supplement industry would come up with drinks and supplements, which would avoid or reduce the build up of lactic acid.
In the mean time there are some interesting questions in this directions and it started already in the early 1980, when we did "lactate testing " in the altitude center in St. Moritz.
We had coaches like Dietmar Millonig's brother , who started to use lactate more in a way of assessing trends than the classical very popular way of Mader: 2 and 4 mmol/l lactate as aerobic or anaerobic thresholds.
Other ideas surfaced like Conconi test , and I remember still our first attempt with metronoms and drumms to pace the athletes around the field. We developed the first Casio pacers to make it easier and as usual we where sure that is the way to go..
.
Already at that time they were some researcher lonely in the desert asking critical questions but got pushed under the table ..
Some of this questions are still out there but with some answers and some nice small practical demonstrations:
. 1. Muscles are able to release lactate , even without exercising . ( Connett et all in the 1984 area )
.
This was clear as the question , that lactate was or may be not only a part of anaerobic conditions in the muscles , but was getting used by other means..
The same group around Connett and later Gayeski as well as the famous Saltin suggested , that there is no proof or evidence, that muscles would get anaerobic during intense exercises and not even in all out workouts.
In fact there are researchers out there showing , that the O2 situation in an all out working muscles may be actually higher than in a lower intensity.
The next question or discussion was the fact , that there is or seems to be no lactic acid in the human body at all , but rather lactate in combination with sodium.
Why and where was this "missconception' coming in , for lactate to be the bad guy.
Well the main reason was , that under gradually increase workload there was an increase of lactate to be measured in the system, and in cases where the athletes were really at the end of their "ability" the lactate measured in the system was always very high.
Once the athlete started to feel better the lactate levels normally would drop.
So no wonder there was an easy conclusion to make about the influence of lactate to any of the limitation in performance.
Now if we would have tested in an graduated step test instead of lactate blood sugar we may have given the bad name perhaps to this blood sugar.
Now this days the ideas have turned , but are still not fully accepted . Well remember it took the catholic church till 2003 before they accepted Galileo Galilei's idea, that the world is round and not the center of the universe.
So we are doing not too badly in this field here, but it will still take some years to come to understand what the major shift "the new paradigma's " on lactate will do in the world of coaching and testing. As well as the incredible big amount of pH D which were done under the "old "ideas, and conclusion drawn and published out of this research.
We as coaches and small field researchers have to rethink and re-organice in a better way , how we look training zones and applications to it as well as "justifications" and explanations to certain training ideas like " lactate tolerance training and so on.
So I like to close this inital part with a summary of questions and "statements" to open a discussion:
Summary:
1. There is no lactiac acid but rather the form of lactate sodium in the body.
2.
There is no anaerobic situation in a healthy all out working muscles even in the hardest part of the workout or step test .
3. There is no conclusive evidence, which may suggest , that the muscles become anaerobic during hard workouts and that there is therefor something called lactate threshold or anaerobic threshold.
4. There is nothing like a sudden increase in lactate existing much rather a very nice exponential increase.
Therefor there is nothing to find as a anaerobic threshold nor a ventilatory threshold. .
In fact based on some research from Brooks et all ( Berkeley/ California ) and Dubouchaud , lactate may be produced and used in the muscle as one of the key products and even may be the main reason why we can sustain certain higher intensity exercises thanks to it's existence.
Lactate may be one of the most important "fuels' in out body and can be shuttled around to be used in areas which are on high demand on energy.
Conclusion:
If this is all a new direction , than we know , that at the moment when we can measure lactate in the blood and see a trend in lactate accumulation , we know that metabolically there is a heavy demand on Glucose and on the production of ATP as an oxygen dependent energy production. A decline ( trend ) in lactate in the system will give us the indication that for the moment there is a need for energy but the intensity in which we move is on a level where we can produce this energy demand oxygen dependent but need a very efficient fuel source, which in this case is lactate.
This thinking brought us to the believe , that we should distance us from terminology like lactate threshold, anaerobic threshold and othe classical terminologies.
So Herb and I decided to name our trend situation we produce with FaCT testing as LBP for lactate balance point. Meaning exactly this:
Lactate in balance on any given level. Meaning we have no clear trend at that moment in increasing of lactate levels nor decreasing.
Or at least a very small change as it is a physiological process.
So for us , as we developed and still developing better ideas of assessing performance changes, we decided , that there is only a trend idea working , rather than absolute numbers.
With this in mind we had to overcome the fact , that we would be the 2 lonely guys in the north foolish enough to believe , that we don't want to work with anaerob and aerob but with completely different ideas of zones. To be not too far of the existing world we slowly integrated this ideas in our small concept and now 20 years later we are surprised , that more and more people actually start independent from us similar ideas, or like in the case of a german PhD guys takes our idea , and simply changes the name.
The fact that his work got accepted was nice for us , as we see that there is some "truth" behind our crazy ideas.
In fact in Switzerland the idea has a kind of a rebirth with different centers looking at it , thanks to a PhD guys with a good name , who sell's it as a new concept.
We have one big advantage : thanks to my bad english I produce own names like LBP and so on and it is fun to see this LBP showing up in more and more papers all over , and nobody really knows where it comes from.
We see people using LBP as the place where the body moves from aerobic to anaerobic.
Here simply what LBP is:
It is the area ( not really point ) and we may have to change actually LBP perhaps to LBZ ( lactate balance point zone ) where the increase of demand of glucose to cover the energy demand in the muscle is so high , that the produce lactate can't be utilized in the working muscle and will be released or transported ( MCT I idea ) into the blood stream to be used in other muscles and organs like heart liver , respiratory muscles and so o on.
The nice thing on this situation is , that some researchers believe , that in the step of releasing or transporting the lactate out of the "overloaded" area the lactate may as well take an H+ with it and therefor helping to try to buffer the increasing acidic situation for somewhat longer to survive.
So this groups believes , that lactate may be the product of , but not the cause of muscle
contractions.
In the next few days I will show some basic field tests we did over the last 20 years where we believe they show this idea of a positive lactate and take the Old ideas apart.
so stay tuned as we will go through a full FaCT test with a very simple language to explain you why and how we do the steps and we may use the numbers from Gary as an example of what was going on in his test and how we can use the physiology to run FaCT very easy and everywhere.
You will see why at the beginning there is no need for a very specific protocol , but the need to think and react during testing.
This alone is very bad, because , who likes to think during a test , nor who likes to make a decision to change something during a test.
I remember the look on the person in a University , during a test we did with a top canadian athlete, when we decided during the tes at the beginning that he had to go on the washroom, and I said no problem we just go back to where we stopped and there is no problem. ha ha and even worse was at the moment where we demanded the ability to prolong the step on the same level for a few more minutes to see the trend better. ha ah there was no way to do that , because the programmed computer was just not set for that.
I am sure when we left the University they were more than happy that we would go back and disappear in the bush.
The only problem was, that the information and intensity we got for the athlete from the university were just simply impossible to do, but there are rules and regulations. ( smile ) Have fun and stay tuned for some more practical ideas and crazy thoughts. Juerg
There's no one on this forum qualified to give advice. The nearest might be Huw who's doing a coaching course.
Rob
P.S
Here's a view of lactate threshold from a Swedish guys who has spent over 20 years testing athletes and patients.
Working in this field for over a quarter of a century I had the pleasure to get inside views n all different ideas and attempts to use lactate in sport and other related fields.
As every body on this forum , we got influenced by the basic works of Fletcher and Hopkins ( 1907 ) and finally got the real answer with the Nobel price of Meyerhofer and Hill.
They actually never were able to proof but rather proposed the first part of the aerobic /anaerobic model , which is still the dominant model for many types of training ideas and testing theories..
In short , as lactate was a chemical substance easy to test, lot's of theories started to use lactate as the reason of different "limitations" which took place during exercising.
Lactate is and was blamed on :
fatigue ( what ever this may mean )
muscle cramps. side stitches
post exercise muscle soreness
oxygen deficit and possibly some more ideas.
Every day and in every TV sport session the journalist and often the retired champion from the particular sport will blame "lactic acid " for the performance drop or some type of reaction we can see on a hard working athlete.
The original thinking was clear:
As soon the oxygen supply was dropping or was getting low the body would , as a negative byproduct , start to produce lactic acid , which than would produce the above possibilities.
So as less O2 would be available as more lactic acid the body would produce and the goal of so many different training ideas was to be able to either avoid lactic acid production or at least try to "tolerate" more lactic acid.
Even the sport nutritional supplement industry would come up with drinks and supplements, which would avoid or reduce the build up of lactic acid.
In the mean time there are some interesting questions in this directions and it started already in the early 1980, when we did "lactate testing " in the altitude center in St. Moritz.
We had coaches like Dietmar Millonig's brother , who started to use lactate more in a way of assessing trends than the classical very popular way of Mader: 2 and 4 mmol/l lactate as aerobic or anaerobic thresholds.
Other ideas surfaced like Conconi test , and I remember still our first attempt with metronoms and drumms to pace the athletes around the field. We developed the first Casio pacers to make it easier and as usual we where sure that is the way to go..
.
Already at that time they were some researcher lonely in the desert asking critical questions but got pushed under the table ..
Some of this questions are still out there but with some answers and some nice small practical demonstrations:
. 1. Muscles are able to release lactate , even without exercising . ( Connett et all in the 1984 area )
.
This was clear as the question , that lactate was or may be not only a part of anaerobic conditions in the muscles , but was getting used by other means..
The same group around Connett and later Gayeski as well as the famous Saltin suggested , that there is no proof or evidence, that muscles would get anaerobic during intense exercises and not even in all out workouts.
In fact there are researchers out there showing , that the O2 situation in an all out working muscles may be actually higher than in a lower intensity.
The next question or discussion was the fact , that there is or seems to be no lactic acid in the human body at all , but rather lactate in combination with sodium.
Why and where was this "missconception' coming in , for lactate to be the bad guy.
Well the main reason was , that under gradually increase workload there was an increase of lactate to be measured in the system, and in cases where the athletes were really at the end of their "ability" the lactate measured in the system was always very high.
Once the athlete started to feel better the lactate levels normally would drop.
So no wonder there was an easy conclusion to make about the influence of lactate to any of the limitation in performance.
Now if we would have tested in an graduated step test instead of lactate blood sugar we may have given the bad name perhaps to this blood sugar.
Now this days the ideas have turned , but are still not fully accepted . Well remember it took the catholic church till 2003 before they accepted Galileo Galilei's idea, that the world is round and not the center of the universe.
So we are doing not too badly in this field here, but it will still take some years to come to understand what the major shift "the new paradigma's " on lactate will do in the world of coaching and testing. As well as the incredible big amount of pH D which were done under the "old "ideas, and conclusion drawn and published out of this research.
We as coaches and small field researchers have to rethink and re-organice in a better way , how we look training zones and applications to it as well as "justifications" and explanations to certain training ideas like " lactate tolerance training and so on.
So I like to close this inital part with a summary of questions and "statements" to open a discussion:
Summary:
1. There is no lactiac acid but rather the form of lactate sodium in the body.
2.
There is no anaerobic situation in a healthy all out working muscles even in the hardest part of the workout or step test .
3. There is no conclusive evidence, which may suggest , that the muscles become anaerobic during hard workouts and that there is therefor something called lactate threshold or anaerobic threshold.
4. There is nothing like a sudden increase in lactate existing much rather a very nice exponential increase.
Therefor there is nothing to find as a anaerobic threshold nor a ventilatory threshold. .
In fact based on some research from Brooks et all ( Berkeley/ California ) and Dubouchaud , lactate may be produced and used in the muscle as one of the key products and even may be the main reason why we can sustain certain higher intensity exercises thanks to it's existence.
Lactate may be one of the most important "fuels' in out body and can be shuttled around to be used in areas which are on high demand on energy.
Conclusion:
If this is all a new direction , than we know , that at the moment when we can measure lactate in the blood and see a trend in lactate accumulation , we know that metabolically there is a heavy demand on Glucose and on the production of ATP as an oxygen dependent energy production. A decline ( trend ) in lactate in the system will give us the indication that for the moment there is a need for energy but the intensity in which we move is on a level where we can produce this energy demand oxygen dependent but need a very efficient fuel source, which in this case is lactate.
This thinking brought us to the believe , that we should distance us from terminology like lactate threshold, anaerobic threshold and othe classical terminologies.
So Herb and I decided to name our trend situation we produce with FaCT testing as LBP for lactate balance point. Meaning exactly this:
Lactate in balance on any given level. Meaning we have no clear trend at that moment in increasing of lactate levels nor decreasing.
Or at least a very small change as it is a physiological process.
So for us , as we developed and still developing better ideas of assessing performance changes, we decided , that there is only a trend idea working , rather than absolute numbers.
With this in mind we had to overcome the fact , that we would be the 2 lonely guys in the north foolish enough to believe , that we don't want to work with anaerob and aerob but with completely different ideas of zones. To be not too far of the existing world we slowly integrated this ideas in our small concept and now 20 years later we are surprised , that more and more people actually start independent from us similar ideas, or like in the case of a german PhD guys takes our idea , and simply changes the name.
The fact that his work got accepted was nice for us , as we see that there is some "truth" behind our crazy ideas.
In fact in Switzerland the idea has a kind of a rebirth with different centers looking at it , thanks to a PhD guys with a good name , who sell's it as a new concept.
We have one big advantage : thanks to my bad english I produce own names like LBP and so on and it is fun to see this LBP showing up in more and more papers all over , and nobody really knows where it comes from.
We see people using LBP as the place where the body moves from aerobic to anaerobic.
Here simply what LBP is:
It is the area ( not really point ) and we may have to change actually LBP perhaps to LBZ ( lactate balance point zone ) where the increase of demand of glucose to cover the energy demand in the muscle is so high , that the produce lactate can't be utilized in the working muscle and will be released or transported ( MCT I idea ) into the blood stream to be used in other muscles and organs like heart liver , respiratory muscles and so o on.
The nice thing on this situation is , that some researchers believe , that in the step of releasing or transporting the lactate out of the "overloaded" area the lactate may as well take an H+ with it and therefor helping to try to buffer the increasing acidic situation for somewhat longer to survive.
So this groups believes , that lactate may be the product of , but not the cause of muscle
contractions.
In the next few days I will show some basic field tests we did over the last 20 years where we believe they show this idea of a positive lactate and take the Old ideas apart.
so stay tuned as we will go through a full FaCT test with a very simple language to explain you why and how we do the steps and we may use the numbers from Gary as an example of what was going on in his test and how we can use the physiology to run FaCT very easy and everywhere.
You will see why at the beginning there is no need for a very specific protocol , but the need to think and react during testing.
This alone is very bad, because , who likes to think during a test , nor who likes to make a decision to change something during a test.
I remember the look on the person in a University , during a test we did with a top canadian athlete, when we decided during the tes at the beginning that he had to go on the washroom, and I said no problem we just go back to where we stopped and there is no problem. ha ha and even worse was at the moment where we demanded the ability to prolong the step on the same level for a few more minutes to see the trend better. ha ah there was no way to do that , because the programmed computer was just not set for that.
I am sure when we left the University they were more than happy that we would go back and disappear in the bush.
The only problem was, that the information and intensity we got for the athlete from the university were just simply impossible to do, but there are rules and regulations. ( smile ) Have fun and stay tuned for some more practical ideas and crazy thoughts. Juerg
- Robh
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Re: Any advice for beginning a structured training programme?
by Jon H » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:01 pm
[quote="Robh"]If a book told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?
Only if it was a book about abseiling or BASE jumping
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Re: Any advice for beginning a structured training programme?
by -Adam- » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:13 pm
[quote="Robh"]There's no one on this forum qualified to give advice.
Sorry Rob but thats b0ll0cks. Just because the people that contribute to this forum don't have phd's in sports science or whatever, that doesn't mean that they can't make suggestions on what Sarah could do to structure her training. People on this forum have a wealth of experience of riding, running and racing. Therfore they have a fair idea of what has worked for them on a practical level, and not on a scientific level. Although there are quite a few of us who are probably a lot more intelligent that you give us credit for.
Lets be realistic here, how foolish would you be to listen to a scientist who can't even ride a bike, over a guy who has been racing his for 20 years!?
Come on, you can't possibly snub everyones opinion on here like that.
I was actually going to comment to Sarah that she asked for advice, got several different opinions, and no clear path of progression
. However, thats what happens everytime someone asks a training question on here. It is up to the person to sift through the advice and make their own decisions from there.-
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Re: Any advice for beginning a structured training programme?
by Tony » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:18 pm
I agree with Adam that there are plenty of people who frequent this forum capable of offering sound advice - almost as many as can offer unsound advice
You've got some targets / races in mind which is a good starting point. Do you have a clear idea on your strengths / weaknesses as a rider and where to focus your efforts? I'd suggest riding some time trials as soon as you reasonably can (esp as you have not done many before) to get the feel, learning to ride at a steady rhythm, know your bike, check your position is comfortable, etc.
As a general, common-sense training plan I'd suggest:
1. Focus on endurance initially. OK - the cycling aspect of your races is not actually that long. Nonetheless, a sound endurance engine is still needed. This is best developed on longer rides (funnily enough) with a relatively easy pace. No big anaerobic efforts needed. Steady pace, steady rythm. You should be a bit tired afterwards - but not destroyed! Also, as it is winter, you can wrap up nice and warm and the fact that the effort is pretty steady means you won't be boiling one minute and freezing the next.
2. After a couple of months focused towards enduarance, your training can come slowly and steadily become specfic to your goals - i.e. shorten the distances a bit, increase the intensity to mirror more closely the sort of riding you will be doing in the event itself.
The fundamental way to make progress is to find a rountine that works for you so that you enjoy riding your bike and want to do it more. In simple terms, the best way to become a good rider is to ride your bike lots. That means you have to enjoy it. Plus ensure you have good diet and reasonable recovery time.
You've got some targets / races in mind which is a good starting point. Do you have a clear idea on your strengths / weaknesses as a rider and where to focus your efforts? I'd suggest riding some time trials as soon as you reasonably can (esp as you have not done many before) to get the feel, learning to ride at a steady rhythm, know your bike, check your position is comfortable, etc.
As a general, common-sense training plan I'd suggest:
1. Focus on endurance initially. OK - the cycling aspect of your races is not actually that long. Nonetheless, a sound endurance engine is still needed. This is best developed on longer rides (funnily enough) with a relatively easy pace. No big anaerobic efforts needed. Steady pace, steady rythm. You should be a bit tired afterwards - but not destroyed! Also, as it is winter, you can wrap up nice and warm and the fact that the effort is pretty steady means you won't be boiling one minute and freezing the next.
2. After a couple of months focused towards enduarance, your training can come slowly and steadily become specfic to your goals - i.e. shorten the distances a bit, increase the intensity to mirror more closely the sort of riding you will be doing in the event itself.
The fundamental way to make progress is to find a rountine that works for you so that you enjoy riding your bike and want to do it more. In simple terms, the best way to become a good rider is to ride your bike lots. That means you have to enjoy it. Plus ensure you have good diet and reasonable recovery time.
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Re: Any advice for beginning a structured training programme?
by Robh » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:16 pm
Thanks for your opinion Adam it's been noted 
The body is not like a engine which is predictable. Everyone's body is different and will react differently so one has to use their common sense and work out what works and what doesn't work for them. The key is to realise when the plan fails, re-evaulate why and move one.
Rob
The body is not like a engine which is predictable. Everyone's body is different and will react differently so one has to use their common sense and work out what works and what doesn't work for them. The key is to realise when the plan fails, re-evaulate why and move one.
Rob
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Re: Any advice for beginning a structured training programme?
by Toks » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:38 pm
[quote="Robh"]If a book told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?
There's no one on this forum qualified to give advice. The nearest might be Huw who's doing a coaching course.
Rob
Er...the other day you gave me a comprehensive explaination of Maximum Aerobic Power in a ramp test. Do you have a doctorate in Exercise Physiology? common dude whats going on with you. Should we say to parents not to read with their children unless they have English degrees There's no one on this forum qualified to give advice. The nearest might be Huw who's doing a coaching course.
Rob
Recently you seem to just indulge in lifting huge chunks of text from other websites rather than providing links. Sometimes they don't even directly address the OP's question. The idea that you can't learn from anyone but a qualified coach is absolutely ridiculous and you know it. If that were the case I think cycling would be a much smaller tightly guarded niche sport than what it is already.
You may or may not know that I'm a qualified behavioural therapist that works mostly with Autistic children. In ten years let me tell you some of the best people I've come across who teach language and communication skills to autistic children haven't had a doctorate or indeed a a graduate degree. I remember a 60 year old grandmother who was a fantastic teacher who left educational psychologists and special need teacher baffled with her teaching ability. Your post was dissapointing and rather short sighted dude
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. As Tony also intimates we do sometimes get carried away and substitute a belief for actual knowledge and fact 
