City of London Police talk on cycling in London

[Amy]

We have this series of talks where I work, different speakers, different subjects from art to health and safety.

Today we had one on cycle safety in London. Very interesting. I now know a bit more on ASLs and cycle lanes - rest assured the officers on bikes are not impressed with them either. I might get myself on their training and do some adult cycle training.

Anyone had any experience of this or of the National Bike Standards?

[higg]

I thought ASLs were a good step, not sure where the idea came from originally. Did they not like them or just wanted them to be a bit better ?

Did they mention left hand side of trucks etc.?


Aodan.

[Snoop Doug]

ASL?

Low wattage of Carshalton

[Amy]

Well, that's what I thought but my experience in London is that everyone pushes to get into them when you can choose a position further back... Then there's the fact that you are technically being illegal by crossing a solid white line to get into them, so they made a cycle lane - up the left hand side!! with no solid line to lead you into the ASL box. Beyond that there is no legal support to ASLs and cycle lanes... as far as I could make out - apart from if there is a solid white line to the lane, cars can't cross into it and we can't cross out of them... another reason for me to hate cycle lanes

And for Doug, whose post I've just seen - ASL stands for Advanced Stop Line.

Yep, definitely mentioned lh side of trucks and buses. Some interesting bits about positioning which I thought good, if obvious, but which not everyone seems able to work out for themselves. The guy speaking advised always sitting behind a car/vehicle (big vehicles especially) so that you can see and be seen in the rh wing mirror - for some reason he discounted the rear view mirror in a car... on the basis that drivers predominantly use the rh mirror rather than the lh.

The City of London Police are visiting businesses in the City doing this presentation so you may want to keep an eye out for it or suggest it to your higherups... They might contact some of us (at the talk) to arrange becoming trainers ourselves.

[Phil H]

Reading commuting fora on other parts of the internet (NB: do not do this for any length of time or you will end up as a paranoid lunatic) some of this issues with ASLs are lack of enforcement, perception by drivers that cycles are pushing in and the fact that HGVs can't always see the road directly in front of the cab so you could get mashed while trying to clip in.

And putting cycle lanes in that positively encourage people to go up the left-hand side of large vehicles is obviously mental.

Isn't the recommended strategy for cycling in London to get a fixie, chop the bars off, wear jeans and ride on the pavement?

[Amy]

I don't think there is actually a law for ASLs. Apparently they can't really enforce them because by following the cycle lane into the ASL motorbikers and scooters aren't actually breaking the law, if a vehicle has rolled into it but then been unable to continue (ie lights changed) then he's still behind a solid white line and again not broken any actual law whereas if a cyclist comes up round on the rh side and crosses into the box, technically that's breaking a law. And if we're confused, so are the majority of the police apparently... (the speaker, a policeman himself, said that...)

We got shown a clip of a cyclist passing a lorry in different ways so that we could see the points at which a cyclist 'disappears' for a lorry driver. I thought cars were bad enough with their limited vision... If you want you can go along to demos where you can sit in a lorry cab and see (or rather not see) for yourself.

I do know of a cycle lane on the rh side of the lane - however it's a lane taking traffic turning right... It's from Ewell East up towards Banstead.

Ride on the pavement? That's a £30 fine - if you get caught...

[Jon H]

Highway Code Rule 178
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows.
[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10, 36(1) & 43(2)]

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Meaning of stop line and references to light signals
43. - (2) Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 has been placed in conjunction with light signals, "stop line" in relation to those light signals means -
(a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or
(b) the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane.

[Amy]

Thanks, Jon, though isn't the Highway Code merely advisory? I think the problem is if the police haven't seen the exact circumstances as to why a vehicle is in the ASL. Anyway the PC said there was a problem in the interpretation of the rules and regs around these ASLs and how the local authority has painted the lines for them and the cycle lanes and I'm neither a lawyer or pc so I'm not in a position to argue either way... I'm only trying to pass on the gist of what I heard. Like I said, see if you can get them into where you work.

[Dombo]

[quote="Amy"]Thanks, Jon, though isn't the Highway Code merely advisory?

[Jon H]

[quote="Dombo"]No, where it says "MUST" then what follows is a compulsory legal requirement.

[Amy]

Sorry, I meant advisory in part.

I assumed the guy knew what he was talking about and I may have misunderstood but I think the general message is ride like everybody else is blind and try for the most visible position on the road which according to my pc 'friend' is the primary position and slap bang in the middle of the road.

[Amy]

No, definitely middle of the road - the road is divided into thirds and the secondary position is on the outside line of the inner third.

Primary position to be used when sitting at the head of a junction, when you can keep up with the flow of the traffic or you wish to make yourself v obvious to avoid an obstacle or constriction in the road.