riots in South London

[Alex P]

Bo and Wayne - great points of view,I think keep it going as long as it is a calm and sensible..

[Iliya]

[quote="Wayne Higgins"]the only thing that is to blame is the upbringing of our youth. (most were teens not old to work yet) what i mean is when the kids come home last night with a 47in TV what do you thing the parents say.. did they give them a pat on the back and say well done son..

[MJ_1993]

As resident ethnic youth of ACC think I'm entitled to point out that this clearly does not subscribe to any political ideology, including anarchism. Now us, the armchair critics and experts (mainly) of the middle class, like to make sweeping statements in order to show the world how well read we are, but in reality the majority of the statements put forward are undercooked at best.

If it was an anti-consumerist riot then why would it happen after a protest against the shooting of a (probably guilty) man? Surely it would take place after the TUC protests, or protests against Banker's bonuses? Why would pubs get attacked too?

All I will say is regardless of whose fault this is, cuts in defence and police funding looks a smart move now, especially when Law & Order is a fundamental theme amidst Conservatism.

I would also like to point out that the majority of the youths aren't rioting. It is not even hitting every deprived area either, look at Duncairn or Whitechapel, two extremely deprived wards as such which have not been faced with such violence. Regardless of whether this is politically correct or not, the observation that is quite clear is that this has hit areas with large Afro-Carribean communities. So perhaps, it is more a community issue than some sort of ideological statement?

[Andrew G]

There is NO excuse for mass mindless rioting, looting, destroying of property (in many cases hard earned family businesses) and deliberately endangering innocent people's live by torching the building underneath their flats.

Being unemployed is no excuse for deciding you should have something anyway. One of my best friends has no qualifications and has lived in a council flat since he was 16. He spent years trying to get a job and doing temp work at nights cleaning up stadiums after concerts and football matches to help give him a few pounds extra. Since he has got a job in a shop in Croydon he spent a number of years on wages that were high ebough to mean that he got no assistance with his rent or any benefits, yet he would have been financially in exactly the same position if he was not working and claimed hia benefits and rent subsidy. He wanted to and chose to work rather than do nothing for the same money.

He has subsequently moved jobs a couple of times and now has a job at Waitrose who are a very good employer and reward his hard work. Many times he has told me how he is sick of the people who "work" in places he has worked and do nothing but complain, have a horrendous attitude, and think they are above something so menial as stacking shelves. He has ended up soing their jobs as well as his own so that what needed doing got done.

My biggest hope is that his shop is not damaged and he still has a place to work after this scum have finished their completely illegal and immoral behaviour.

Excuse me if I have no sympathy for the supposed problems this scum think they have to fight against. If they put half as much energy and focus in to other aspects of their lives then they wouldn't have half the "problems" they believe they have.

[Bo-Gilly]

It's hardly an 'ideological statement' Mo, it's straight forward criminality. Nor is it anything to do with race - I know of no documented incident where the target was based on racial considerations. This is about bitter frustrated alienated youth who have no respect whatsoever towards a society which offers them so little opportunity and often treats them with so much contempt. You reap what you sow.

And I really don't know who might have suggested that it is 'an anti-consumerist riot' It's clearly the complete opposite. As one newspaper nicely put it in their leader today, it's "a rage against exclusion from consumerist fulfilment". It's not even rioting, it's just straight forward looting. There's no ideological commitment other than a commitment to fill your pockets.

[Snoop Doug]

[quote="Bo-Gilly"] This is about bitter frustrated alienated youth who have no respect whatsoever towards a society which offers them so little opportunity and often treats them with so much contempt. You reap what you sow.

It's not even rioting, it's just straight forward looting. There's no ideological commitment other than a commitment to fill your pockets.

[Paul H]

[quote="Bo-Gilly"]This is about bitter frustrated alienated youth who have no respect whatsoever towards a society which offers them so little opportunity and often treats them with so much contempt. You reap what you sow.

[Paul H]

[quote="Snoop Doug"] I've got a law abiding black mate who lives in South London and my heart sinks when I hear how often he and his buddies get pulled over or stopped.

[MJ_1993]

"If they are alienated, its either their own or as Wayne said their parents fault."

See thats the problem those isn't it? If they are alienated from SOCIETY, then SOCIETY can't cast them aside like that. If you have been alienated, it is hardly 100% your fault. You cannot be serious. How can parents stem feeling alienated? Often there's an intergenerational gap to be combatted too? If your parent is a first generation immigrant for instance how can you make your child who is probably at a cultural crossroads feel less alienated when you yourself are an outsider?

I'm not saying the parents can't do more, without a doubt they obviously can; but that statement just typifies my point about people thinking their opinion is worthwhile because they read a newspaper everyday. I guess in the land of the ignorant, everyone is an expert though.

Bo my might regarding race is that there is a systematic issue here amidst black youth of the UK whereby they seem to feel lost and lack real leaders.

Clearly the most undeniable underlying cause is the degeneration of bonds within communities and societies, and humans are inherently social beings and yearn for that community; look at the number of youths who turn to gangs, bodies outside school or even religion to provide them with that. Yes they have failed themselves, but society, their teachers and others definitely shoulder some of the blame.

I agree with Bo's point in part, but it's not like you can't get out. This isn't the projects of America where you leave the deprived areas on a sports scholarship or in a body bag. My father for instance came here as a refugee, lived on an estate and now he's done pretty well. My mum went to Tamworth (Alan Malarkey taught there) which was hardly a foremost academic institution but again she made something of herself. It's not about opportunities it's the fact these youths are scared and feel insignificant in part because they have no community to belong to and the moment they sense a chance to grab some power they seize it.

I've mentored kids who would've otherwise (not saying its down to me!) probably got involved in something like this and at the end of the day they lack role models and are just running scared.

And education isn't even that hard, regardless of how bad a school is, GCSEs are easier enough to pass and A-Levels too, can't blame it on bullying and disruption, that's part of every school in the country.

[Bo-Gilly]

[quote]Lets try again

[MJ_1993]

[quote="Snoop Doug"]

Most of us on here have no idea what it feels like to be a repressed minority.

[Dombo]

Well said, Paul. As to Snoop's heart sinking at the thought of his mate getting pulled over, no offence, but maybe in that part of south London the coppers are just pulling over those who fit suspects' decscriptions? Maybe the police are drawing on experience in order to do their jobs properly, like most of us do?
My heart sank when I was stopped in Canary Wharf and some spotty PCSO sorted through my sweaty gym kit under "Prevention of Terrorism", presumably for balance so as not to upset the usual suspects bleating about their 'uman rights innit bruv; or seeing some 80 year old Scottish granny being patted down for weapons at Heathrow.
As to the riots, my Swiss and German colleagues are amazed at the feeble response of our police. Policing communities "by consent" is alright for us law abiding folk, but a few well aimed baton rounds and water cannon might have put a dampener on last night's nonsense.

Now, where did I put my Daily Mail......

[quote="Paul H"][quote="Snoop Doug"] I've got a law abiding black mate who lives in South London and my heart sinks when I hear how often he and his buddies get pulled over or stopped.

[Bo-Gilly]

[quote]My sister wears the hijab and has been spat on amongst other things, but I don't see her smashing up stuff? My three year old brother, when he was one got spat on in valley park when he was being held by my sister. Yet none of my family resorted to mindless violence?

[Dombo]

[quote="marco"]
Personally I think it's kids who dont feel that they matter. Don't matter to society, to future employers, and more importantly to their parent(s). Its a pretty strong way of saying "I am here and I want something".
Its not right and as long term fixes go it's a very hard one to fix