The never ending Bo-Gilly vs Dombo thread

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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Dombo » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:18 am

Not a crusty having a pop at Eggwina? Must check out iPlayer later :D
Good to see New York's finest sorting out their layabouts at last and clearing their camps with commendable vigour. In the words of Billy Ray Valentine "May I suggest you use your night-stick, Officer?"
Even better to see on the BBC news this morning an interview with Simon Nash, inventor of Green Oil. No whining sense of entitlement from this lad - researched his market, created something that people want to buy and has built a business, providing a living for himself and others.
Anti-capitalists: take note, have a wash, and get off your @r$e$. The world doesn't owe you a living
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Bo-Gilly » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:22 pm

[quote]Anti-capitalists: take note, have a wash, and get off your @r$e$. The world doesn't owe you a living


I see that you struggle to follow current affairs as much as you struggle to follow threads on a cycling forum Dombo.

The protesters outside St Paul’s Cathedral are not protesting about unemployment, although obviously increased unemployment is one of the symptoms of the global crises caused by bankers.

Plenty of the protesters have jobs, they include a freelance writer, a systems analyst, a caterer, a charity worker, a forces veteran, and so on. They are indeed people who have 'got off their arses', as you so contemptuously suggest they should.

Unsurprisingly, they also include some of the one million unemployed young people, some of which, having completed their studies and secured themselves a degree or two, are waiting to enter the labour market......people with a bit of 'spare time' on their hands you could say, and young people who would rather do something proactive instead of sitting at home watching telly whilst waiting for replies to job applications.

What they are protesting about, and it's part of a global protest, is against corporate greed, and against the economic instability of inequality, but above all, against the rampant unregulated free-market fundamentalism which has got the world in this mess.

And make no mistake, despite all the attempts to shift the blame for the global crises onto "stupid and lazy" Greeks, the last Labour government, and multitude of other excuses, it is the greed-driven incompetence of unregulated bankers, that goes to the very heart of the present global financial crises.

It is this fact which has caused so much anger throughout the world. The same bankers/financial institutions which banged on so much about the virtues of the unregulated free-market which is free of government interference, suddenly expected and demanded immediate government intervention to save them from the mess which they had created for themselves through their own greed and incompetence.

And to pay for the mind-boggling astronomical sums of money which was needed to save their own incompetent skins, they expected and demanded that ordinary working people cough up, whilst they continued to rake in profits and handsome fat bonuses.

Where elected governments have failed to do 100% of what they expected and demanded of them, the bankers have ensured that they were replaced by totally unelected 'technocrats". They were particularly outraged with a prime minister who despite willing to do their bidding, had the barefaced cheek to suggest asking the people who elected him their opinion on the matter.

What we are experiencing is the bankers' dictatorship. And not entirely unexpected, many people are angry. Not least because banks are not the way out of this mess. Creating fictitious capital by moving money around in a 'clever' way does not produce material wealth. To produce real wealth, someone somewhere, has to make something....there is no other way.

Maybe a few bankers could get rid of their pretentious red braces, off their fat arses, and get themselves proper jobs. Instead of sponging off the rest of us.
Last edited by Bo-Gilly on Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Dombo » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:25 pm

[quote="marco"]hear hear, it doesn't owe them a living. It gave it all to the bankers. all 850 billion of it.


Nice figure to write on a placard, Marco, or to scream into a copper's face on the next protest march, but not entirely correct.
Total potential exposure as at March 2009 when the National Audit Office wrote its report was indeed £850 bn. This included the shares and loans bought from nationalising RBS and Lloyds (don't forget who shoved Lloyds into paying top dollar for bust bank HBOS in the first place); indemnifying the Bank of England against providing liquidity (basically going out and buying gilts) was £200bn, guaranteeing £250bn of wholesale bank borrowing, £40bn of loans to Bradford and Bingley and compensation scheme, and finally insurance cover for £280 bn of bank assets.

Taking the first chunk, 200bn of gilts purchases - these are showing a 25% total return since March 2009, capital gains and interest.
As to guarantees, they are just that, guarantees. They provide comfort. If my mate borrows 100 quid and I guarantee the loan, I only have to pay up if he defaults. Same with the government guarantees provided to the banks. The guarantees allowed the banks to borrow via bond issues or wholesale markets and so keep the system running smoothly. There is no handing over of money unless the person being guaranteed defaults.
Add back the fees the banks paid for those guarantees, and the figures start to look less bad.
All told, the cash paid out since Nov 2008 when all this kicked off has been about £125 billion. Interestingly this is near enough what the UK spends on Welfare each year so may explain the bleatings of those happy campers littering St Pauls and Finsbury Square, and the attempts at self-justification of some of the rioters.

Full breakdown for 2012 UK spending is here:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/

The total cost won't be known for some time but is likely to be between £50-70 billion. Not such an impressive number to raise rabble with and approximately equal to the taxes paid each year by the financial services industry and those who work there.

Hope that gives some clarity without offending anybody


And an excellent article explaining the above sums in more detail is here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/real ... ng-bailout
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Dombo » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:30 pm

Bo, you should get along to Finsbury Square and help them argue their case, because you are a hell of a lot more articulate than the muddled drivel one of them was spouting.
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Dombo » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:35 pm

[quote="Bo-Gilly"]Where elected governments have failed to do 100% of what they expected and demanded of them, the bankers have ensured that they were replaced by totally unelected 'technocrats". They were particularly outraged with a prime minister who despite willing to do their bidding, had the barefaced cheek to suggest asking the people who elected him their opinion on the matter.



Bankers? I think you'll find that was the Eurocrats led by the German government that kicked out Papanderou and Berlusconi. Mrs Merkel threatens to stop writing the cheques - firing up the Panzers is so last century.

Oh, and nowhere did I say "lazy and stupid Greeks".
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Dombo » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:55 pm

[quote="Bo-Gilly"]Maybe a few bankers could get rid of their pretentious red braces, off their fat arses, and get themselves proper jobs. Instead of sponging off the rest of us.


Be careful what you wish for - 200,000 financial services jobs have been culled since 2009. That's an awful lot of highly qualified people squeezing others perhaps less so out of lower paid jobs.
(btw, "pretentious red braces"? F**k me, have you been living in a cave since you last saw Wall Street on Betamax?That's even more last century than Mrs Merkel firing up the Panzers, me old son :lol: )
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Bo-Gilly » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:31 pm

[quote]Bankers? I think you'll find that was the Eurocrats led by the German government that kicked out Papanderou and Berlusconi. Mrs Merkel threatens to stop writing the cheques - firing up the Panzers is so last century.

Oh, and nowhere did I say "lazy and stupid Greeks".


Yes that's right......"bankers". All this is about keeping them happy.

Mrs Merkel isn't writing the cheques because she's deeply concerned about the plight of the Greek people, who incidentally are being well screwed by the EU/IMF, she's writing cheques to save the French and German banks who have caught a cold.

The elected Prime minister of Greece has been replaced by an unelected former European Central Bank vice-chairman because the bankers weren't prepared to tolerate a PM who had the audacity to ask the Greek people what policies they wished their government to pursue. Specially as this exercise in democracy was very likely to result in the Greek people voting "incorrectly".

Otherwise, I'm absolutely sure that the bankers would have been more than happy to go along with this charade that passes as democracy, and the myth that the electorate, not industrialists and bankers, dictate government policy.

In the case of scandal-ridden Berlusconi, he was already hanging on by the skin of his teeth to risk further isolation and unpopularity to carry out even more social spending cuts and privatisation to appease bankers, so he had to be replaced by an unelected former EU commissioner - purely to satisfy the demands of bankers.


"As a minister, I experienced the power of industrialists and bankers to get their way by use of the crudest form of economic pressure, even blackmail, against a Labour Government. Compared to this, the pressure brought to bear in industrial disputes is minuscule. This power was revealed even more clearly in 1976 when the IMF secured cuts in our public expenditure. These lessons led me to the conclusion that the UK is only superficially governed by MPs and the voters who elect them. Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact. If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is, and some new Chartist agitation might be born and might quickly gather momentum."

Tony Benn
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Bo-Gilly » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:37 pm

[quote]Be careful what you wish for - 200,000 financial services jobs have been culled since 2009. That's an awful lot of highly qualified people squeezing others perhaps less so out of lower paid jobs.
(btw, "pretentious red braces"? F**k me, have you been living in a cave since you last saw Wall Street on Betamax?That's even more last century than Mrs Merkel firing up the Panzers, me old son :lol: )


:? What do you mean 'squeezing people out of jobs' ? .........surely the reason there is unemployment is because people are lazy and want to live off benefits ? There's plenty of work out there if people want it ....... is there not ?

According to you, it's just a case of telling them "have a wash, and get off your @r$e$. The world doesn't owe you a living"

And btw, whilst I happy to accept that you are the expert on the attire of bankers who sit on their fat overpaid arses, happy in the knowledge that they can take any risk they so wish, because ordinary working people to come running to their rescue should they screw up big time, and my limited knowledge of their preferred means of keeping their pants up is based on what I see on the telly, there are certainly quite a few 'city experts' who also appear to be living in last century. Here's one famous one :

[img]http://www.jla.co.uk/uploads/images/UrquhartStewartJustinD1.jpg[/img]
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Dombo » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:01 pm

Touché on the braces :lol:

But unfortunately Justin Urquhart Stewart is not a banker. Trained as a barrister, he spent some time as a stockbroker and corporate financier and now has his own wealth management firm. He often appears on the BBC and makes every effort to educate ordinary non-financial-markets folk about the markets.

But then any well-spoken bloke in a suit and braces is bound to raise the ire of the crusty anti-capitalists so "off wiv 'is 'ead,"
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Paul H » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:48 pm

[quote="Bo-Gilly"]And make no mistake, despite all the attempts to shift the blame for the global crises onto "stupid and lazy" Greeks, the last Labour government, and multitude of other excuses, it is the greed-driven incompetence of unregulated bankers, that goes to the very heart of the present global financial crises.


Caused just by the bankers?

What about those who borrowed the money in the first place and havnt paid it back?

Nothing to do with the government in charge at the time who liked to borrow loads of money as well?

If they were unregulated, is that not a fault of the government?

How did they let our banks get in such a mess knowing we would have to bail them out if it all went wrong?

Didnt Mr Brown say there will be no more boom and bust?
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Bo-Gilly » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:16 pm

[quote]Didnt Mr Brown say there will be no more boom and bust?


:D Yes of course..........the present global financial crises is all the fault of Gordon Brown !


Now if you want to argue that Gordon Brown was too right-wing and didn't do enough to rein in rampant unregulated free-market fundamentalism, then I think we can probably find an area of agreement there. But to suggest that Gordon Brown is responsible for the failings of Capitalism, I think that is stretching it a bit !

And I think it might be useful if you reread this quote :

"As a minister, I experienced the power of industrialists and bankers to get their way by use of the crudest form of economic pressure, even blackmail, against a Labour Government. Compared to this, the pressure brought to bear in industrial disputes is minuscule. This power was revealed even more clearly in 1976 when the IMF secured cuts in our public expenditure. These lessons led me to the conclusion that the UK is only superficially governed by MPs and the voters who elect them. Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact. If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is, and some new Chartist agitation might be born and might quickly gather momentum."

It would be a very brave Prime Minister indeed who took on the might of industrialists and bankers. There's never been any evidence that New Labour would ever produce such a person......are you disappointed ?
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Paul H » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:19 am

As Dombo said, I commend you for an imaginative reading between my lines.

And I think it might be useful if you read this:

The Prime Minister was forced to apply to the International Monetary Fund for a £2.3 billion rescue package; the largest-ever call on IMF resources up to that point. In November 1976 the IMF announced its conditions for a loan, including deep cuts in public expenditure,

Good on the IMf for saving us and who probably just wanted to make sure they get their money back.

And well done for diverting this post away from the original subject which I know is a sensitive subject for Labour voters.
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Bo-Gilly » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:53 am

[quote]And well done for diverting this post away from the original subject which I know is a sensitive subject for Labour voters.


Someone else who struggles to follow a thread - I didn't divert anything. Go back and check. Although I think the "original subject" was somewhat exhausted, a bit like this thread really. Do you want to return to it ?

And I'm not a Labour voter btw.
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Dombo » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:36 am

[quote="Bo-Gilly"]And I think it might be useful if you reread this quote :

"As a minister, I experienced the power of industrialists and bankers to get their way by use of the crudest form of economic pressure, even blackmail, against a Labour Government. Compared to this, the pressure brought to bear in industrial disputes is minuscule. This power was revealed even more clearly in 1976 when the IMF secured cuts in our public expenditure. These lessons led me to the conclusion that the UK is only superficially governed by MPs and the voters who elect them. Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact. If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is, and some new Chartist agitation might be born and might quickly gather momentum."



Good old Tony Benn. The IMF only had to bail us out because once again a Labour government had run out of other people's money. As for who really ran the country at the time, his government was pretty much funded by and therefore dictated to, by the all-powerful unions. Given that at least one of them, Jack Jones of the TGWU, was at the time in the pay of the KGB and therefore guilty of treason, quite a few of those old codgers should have been swinging from a rope long before good old Mrs T finally took them on.
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Re: Anyone we know?

Postby Andrew G » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:55 am

Does anyone know where I can buy a boat?
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