Knee Pain

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Re: Knee Pain

Postby Mohammad L » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:13 pm

[quote="olderigetbetteriwas"]also, if you wanna push 97 rpm, why train at 70-75? that don't make sense to me.


My natural cadence is in excess of 100rpm - usually the average for 1 hour threshold is 102rpm.
By doing big gear, low cadence work, I'm hoping that I'll be able to push two or three cogs lower at a lower average cadence of 96-98rpm, which may yield up to a 10% improvement in my wattage for 1 hour ( which should 'feel' more efficient because of the increased distance per pedal stroke despite perceived exertion being greater owing to increased torque)

Wiggins in his book 'A Year in Yellow' claims that that be brought his avg cadence of 100+rpm down to 95rpm by doing strength training sessions where he was pedalling at 60rpm on a v.big gear....and somehow that led to an improvement (despite the power output being same as before?)

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Re: Knee Pain

Postby Mohammad L » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:16 pm

[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/cycling/9442119/Bradley-Wiggins-hopes-cycling-in-a-higher-gear-will-help-him-to-emulate-hero-in-Olympic-time-trial.html[/url]
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby olderigetbetteriwas » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:28 pm

hmmmm, interesting...maybe there is something in it...but wiggins has a lot of biomechanical analysis at his fingertips...everything aligned, measured, customised etc...i'd change your cleats, keep everything else the same...if pain goes away then no need to modify anything else...if pain still there then change the other things one-by-one until it goes. you mention your medial quad is giving you pain..suggests that force production could have something to do with it?....again hints at big gear?
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby Toks » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:30 pm

Mo, its quite clear that you've simply been over doing things. There were obviously signs you should have taken things easier but you ignored them. I've made this mistake before and so have many others. I thinks its because we can always 'cycle'(turn the pedals) now matter how bad the injury is. You can't do that with a sport like 'running' coz its simply too painful so you just have to rest. Just think about it, not one, but both of your knees have been hurting on and off the bike for the last few weeks. :shock: :shock: Go and get a 'professional bike fit' (or get it checked out) and take it real easy for a while.
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby Toks » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:49 pm

Mo, its quite clear that you've simply been over doing things. There were obviously signs you should have taken things easier but you ignored them. I've made this mistake before and so have many others. I thinks its because we can always 'cycle'(turn the pedals) now matter how bad the injury is. You can't do that with a sport like 'running' coz its simply too painful so you just have to rest. Just think about it, not one, but both of your knees have been hurting on and off the bike for the last few weeks. :shock: :shock: Go and get a 'professional bike fit' (or get it checked out) and take it real easy for a while.[quote="Mohammed L"]Wiggins in his book 'A Year in Yellow' claims that that be brought his avg cadence of 100+rpm down to 95rpm by doing strength training sessions where he was pedalling at 60rpm on a v.big gear....and somehow that led to an improvement (despite the power output being same as before?)
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You really need to stop blindly following quotes from pro cyclists. Yes, SKY and others do big gear work on climbs etc but these guys have been training for years and their bodies have adapted to training loads that would put the average competitive amateur in hospital if the attempted to follow a pro training programs for a few weeks.

A switch from 105rpm to 95rpm is not big at all and you wouldn't need to train in low gears (60-70rPM) to achieve this. I couldn't find the interview but Tim Kerrison was asked about how he had changed Bradley's Training since he became his coach and it was interesting how many inacuracies he pointed out despite the fact the quotes had come from Bradley. Do you really think their gonna tell you there exact training methods? When Armstrong was at his pomp he would mention Chris Carmichel was his coach and gave him programs. We later find out this was not the case at all and Armstrong was trained by Ferrari and a guy called EPO
Last edited by Toks on Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby DavidKennett » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:22 am

Might be of help

[url=http://www.elitecycling.co.uk/about-elite-cycling.html]Elite Cycling[/url]
[url=http://www.trainsharpcyclecoaching.co.uk/cycle-coaching/bike-fit.html]Train Sharp[/url]
[url=http://www.cadencesport.co.uk/]Cadence Sport[/url] with an overview of a bike fitting video

Might seem expensive, but compared against cost of a modern bike, probably best investment you'll make.
I know the last two have fitted/coached local guys to pro continental level with some good results this year so far.
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby Andrew G » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:49 pm

Give Paul at Elite a call, very good, very knowledgeable, for a bike fit if you have a really random approach to set up. This seems to have been the case.

As a simple rough rule of thumb marker for your saddle height on your road bike:
If you unclip one foot and put your heel on the pedal then as you pass the 6 o'clock position when pedalling backwards you should just about be able to flick the pedal over the BDC without rotating your hips or stretching. This will normally mean that when you clip in if you drop your heel and back pedal then your leg (with the heel dropped) will be straight when at about 5 o'clock.

This gives the vast majority of people a very close to spot on saddle height, give or take a few mm movement up or down, usually up if anything. Equally for reach for most people when riding on the hood the angle at your armpit is 90degrees or close to. Don't forget that if your move your saddle back then it effectively raises it so you'd need to drop the seatpost a couple of mm and vice versa - move it forward and raise the post a couple of mm.

Ideally your stem length should be 110mm (with a 10mm differance tolerance) as that's what bike geometry is designed around, and when riding on the hoods the bars will obscure the front hub.

The above will in most cases give a good fit, a few mm here and there may be needed to fit your physique.

Marco: The high cadence thing is a myth. Cadences are a personal thing. Higher cadences make the heart work faster and are a more aerobic workout. If you have a bigger heart then it will pump more blood (and oxygen) around the body for each beat and tends to operate on a slower bpm and can therefore be better supported by lower cadences. Lower cadences are more aerobically efficient but require larger and stronger muscles / muscle groups. As everyone's heart and physique is different the way it works best and towards which cadence it is best suited is different for everyone. This is why it's such crap that when Armstrong span low gears and everyone copied a load of people didn't get any results from it. Lower cadences are often easier on the legs simply because the muscle force required is lower, but if you don't have the aerobic fitness or your natural make-up is not geared that way then you won't be able to maintain the required cadence to cover the ground in the same time.
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby spike » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:31 pm

[quote="Andrew G"] Don't forget that if your move your saddle back then it effectively raises it so you'd need to drop the seatpost a couple of mm and vice versa - move it forward and raise the post a couple of mm.



You sure about that bit? I've always believed its the opposite way around.
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby Antloony » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:29 pm

[quote="spike"][quote="Andrew G"] Don't forget that if your move your saddle back then it effectively raises it so you'd need to drop the seatpost a couple of mm and vice versa - move it forward and raise the post a couple of mm.



You sure about that bit? I've always believed its the opposite way around.



Nope, moving your saddle back moves it further behind the BB so in turn further away from the peddles. :D
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby spike » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:00 pm

Huh! So then I've learnt something today.
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby Mohammad L » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:10 pm

[quote="Andrew G"] Lower cadences are more aerobically efficient but require larger and stronger muscles / muscle groups.


Agreed. For myself, I think muscular strength is more the limiting factor rather than cardiovascular fitness, so I tend to spin more.

Cancellara has massive muscular thighs & glutes yet his cadence is well in excess of 100rpm - probably between 105 and 110rpm - absolutely mental!! He tends to use a 53 ring. Martin has a similar build yet operates at a lower cadence (reported ~85rpm) using a 58 front ring.
Wiggins - v.skinny + extremely lean - uses a 56 o-symmetric front and ~95rpm.

So, cadence is probably a personal thing.
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby Toks » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:13 am

[quote="Mohammad L"][quote="Andrew G"] Lower cadences are more aerobically efficient but require larger and stronger muscles / muscle groups.

I think muscular strength is more the limiting factor rather than cardiovascular fitness, so I tend to spin more.
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Mo, 'muscular strength' is not your limiting factor when it comes to increasing your power output for endurance cycling. Every single person in ACC (yeah, even Amy who complains she doesn't feel strong sometimes :wink: ) has the 'muscular strength' to win the TDF. The reason we can't win the TDF is because we don't have the required...
The Lactate Threshold
Muscular Capillarisation
Glycogen storage capacity
VO2max (may be 1 or 2 of us are close)
Mitochondral Enzymes
Stroke volume etc

When we talk about a particular rider being strong we really mean he has great muscular endurance/cardiovasuclar fitness. A few years ago myself along with hundreds and hundreds of Etape riders beat Chris Hoy to the top of the various pyrenean climbs despite the fact he's a pro. If endurance cycling (what we all do!) was about muscular strength then that particular scenario would be a lot less likely...As you've correctly identified 'cadence is a red herring'. You simply ride the cadence that will give you the best performance for your event :D

http://www.aboc.com.au/tips-and-hints/w ... ce-anymore
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/126133/g ... rove-power
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Re: Knee Pain

Postby Marek » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:52 pm

1. Get a bike fit - I had a problem with knee pain about a year or so into starting to ride. I went to the Etape and didn't really take note of saddle height etc, so had been training at a certain height and then changed it a bit by mistake when transporting bike to the Etape. I then got awful knee pain, saddle was too low without a doubt now I know a bit more about it. I had a bike fit and it was sorted almost overnight, I now know my vital measurement by heart and when I go anywhere with a bike or hire one I always have a tape measure with me to ensure I am as accurate as possible.

2. If you are interchanging between different bikes, you need to get them as close as possible to each other. If you do a lot of training on one bike, and then change to another one that is not the same it will feel strange and likely you will push very hard, get tired very quickly and then injure yourself as using different muscles. If you interchange your bikes frequently this may be less of an issue and you can get yourself comfy with slightly different positions, but this is not ideal.

3. From what I have been reading about your riding it sounds as like you have moved from a recreational cyclist to one that is knocking very long rides in about a year. I think it is possible that you are overdoing it. Becoming an endurance athlete with the stamina to ride long rides day in day out takes time. It defo takes longer than a year for most people.

4. Feeling guilty about not riding is pretty common in people getting into cycling and triathlon. The best thing to do is to chill out a bit, you make a lot of benefits out of resting, this is when your muscles recover and grow and become stronger. I have seen a few guys over do it in their early years of riding to then get themselves into a position where they then loathe the bike and training and give up. It is a real shame to see that happen so try to be sensible. If you are hurting or feeling unwell your body is telling you something. No need to feel guilty this happens to everybody. The guys who recover quicker and are back on their bikes stronger are the ones that take the time off to ensure they are recovered and well. You just need to accept that your body will go wrong now and then. If you give it time to recover you will be back quick enough and it does not take that long to get back up to speed if you need to take a couple of weeks off or even a month.

Hope that is helpful

Cheers

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