Cleat positioning

[Sylv]

I've always used the "ball of foot" method and found it to work for me. On my current shoes the cleats are as far forward as the shoe holes will allow.

Some readings like from this recent Q&A on cyclingnews might call for a radical re-thinking of the installation method though. In my mind the foot/lever was more efficient because the cleat was at its outermost end.

Where do you have your cleats?

[quote]I think some explanation is necessary. The foot is a lever, but on a bike it is an inefficient lever because the fulcrum is way back at the ankle. That means that the longer the lever length, the harder the lower limb has to work to allow force to be exerted by that lever. As the lever length is shortened, the work done by the lower limb is lessened because lever length is lessened. ( ... )

What I have found to date is this: modified rear of forefoot cleat position is much better than the usual ball of foot over pedal axle recommendations which to my mind have never made any sense or had any credibility BUT moving your cleat as far back on a normal shoe to achieve modified rear of forefoot position is no substitute for TMT joint over pedal axle positioning. It is just better than 1st MTP positioning. ( ... )

From my limited but growing torque analysis experience it is clear that less peak muscular contraction (lower torque graph peak) is needed to produce a given wattage. Translation - perform longer at the same speed.

1. That torque is applied to the pedals for more degrees of crank arc (higher torque graph trough)
2. That ability to pedal at high rpm improves.
3. That ability to push a large gear in a sprint improves.
4. That ability to stay off the seat up hills without blowing up improves.
5. That recovery improves.

I know this sounds too good to be true so to offer a balanced appraisal, there are negatives. They are:

1. Lessened ability to jump in a sprint. But in my case at least this is made up for by improved ability to ride a bigger gear faster once up to speed.
2. The need to relearn your approach to low speed riding and track stands because of substantial toe overlap.
3. Inability to achieve TMT joint cleat position on most shoes without substantial modification that is beyond the skills of many people.
4. Some combinations of frame and rider can mean that they may not be able to lower their bars enough to match the substantial drop in seat height required.

[Sylv]

[quote]GH has more torque analysis data on more riders with regard to cleat position than anyone I have met or heard of. In short, he has experience with two kinds of cleat position - centre of the ball of the foot (1st MTP) over the centre of the pedal axle because that has been what he has used as a reference point for his torque analysis experiments over the last 10 years, AND tarsometatarsal joint (TMT, arch, midfoot or whatever you want to call it but properly and accurately Tarsometatarsal joint) over the pedal axle centre.

When I say "radical":

[quote]In my case, changing to midfoot cleat position meant the cleat had to move back an extra 43 mm for a size 44 shoe. For riders with first MTP over pedal axle, the amount that the cleat needs to be moved back would be greater than that for a similar sized foot.

[kieran]

1st MTP = 1st metatarsalphalange (MTP) joint, the 1st refers to the big toe digit, goes down to 5th for the little toe (so 1st MTP = ball of foot) - i have seen this topic before but no more space to move the cleat down the shoe anyway.

[Dominic]

It also is supposed to elleviate 'hot foot' for long distance riders!

[Sylv]

Well they might be onto something there.

Experimented with moving backwards the cleats on the shoes I use for my commuting mtb today. Have got them as far back as possible, about 15mm further back than previously. Not as radical as it was suggested (which might require special shoes), but enough to feel a difference (pedal axle is now a good 15mm behind the ball of the foot). Lowered the saddle 15mm but it felt too low so put it back up a bit.

Shame there was such an unusual tailwind on the commute as it possibly distorted my first impressions - which were good. Didn't feel uncomfortable as I had feared, but I felt more connected to the pedal, with the weight I put on it more effetively transmitted, and I do believe that as they say the spinning might be helped. Going uphill felt good. Again as they say out of the saddle pedalling and sprinting might be slightly negatively affected, but that seems like an acceptable trade-off (well maybe not for all of us).

I'm gonna leave it as it is for a week or so, and if I don't get any pains of annoyances, have a go on the road shoes/bike.

Goes to show how little we really know despite cycling for ages (eh Andrew, and I was giving you advice on foot position!).

[Graham O]

I also have the ball of my foot over the axle. I think that this method originates from a time before shoe plates etc.

I think that exerting force over the arch of your foot is bad for your feet.

If you push down on the ball, you are exerting the force through the largest, flattest area of your foot.

[sid_day]

I think the whole fit needs to be taken together since seat height, seat tube angle and saddle fore aft position will affect things like knee over pedal spindle.

There is so much going on it's very hard to sort it out yourself.

Especially since if you rely on "feel" a tight muscle or tendon here or there may give you an inappropriate position.

After years of guess work I have splashed the cash and got a thorough fitting done at Cyclefit in Covent Garden; it took 2.5 hours!

This included pedals and shoes.

Getting a second person to look at your postion may show the need to exercise muscles/stretch muscles you were not aware of.

Warwick Spence did my cycle fit and he is an accomplished racing cyclist.

[Sylv]

After about 25km I got a bit of a pain under the knees but it soon disappeared. I think it might have partly due to having the saddle too low. I put it back up again a bit. Also I noticed I seemed to do more work from the muscles above the knee.

I know what you mean and think I will only make a change of half the difference for the cleats - 7.5mm.

Trouble with a fitting session is that when you ride 3-4 bikes and getting the same position on all.

What changes did you make after the fitting session?

[sid_day]

New things I found out:

-I have wide feet.
-I have size 44 feet, BUT
-The size of my arch is the same as a size 45...
-i.e. I have relatively short toes.
-Therefore I need my cleats at the foremost position.
-I also have wedges to accomodate my pronation.

Also Warwick recommended running my saddle about 3cm higher which have found comfortable with the new cleat postion.

[sid_day]

I have to stress the reason I have done this is that I have experienced knee pain and wanted to rule out any variables from my shoes/cleats/position.

Rather than get super performance I want to have working knees for as long as possible and be riding my bike until I'm at least 70!

[Sylv]

did you tell him about the singlspeed thing

[sid_day]

I think so. You mean SSWC?

[Sylv]

no I mean in regards to the knees!

[sid_day]

Isee.
The knee problem is due to imbalance of quadriceps muscles.
I just wanted to make sure the cleat/riding position wasn't making things worse.

We did discuss crank length etc.

Warwick does race MTB and cylco cross too.