Saddles...

[-Adam-]

Since I've been on the new bike, I have had a couple of niggles with my left knee. On the inside of it, just to the right (as you look down on it) of the knee cap. It happens at the top of the pedal stroke.

I have read up over the weekend on possible causes and the most likely cause seems to be my pedals. On this bike they are very tight and don't allow my feet to fload at all. Compared to my trek where the feet can float a little. Im assuming cleat position should be ok as they don't seem to have moved and I have not had the same problem on my Trek.

The other variable is the cranks, 172.5s as apposed to 175s on the trek. But most of what I have read rules out crank length. Plus the measurements are pretty similar throughout compared to the trek. Although I am lower at the front on the new bike compared to the trek.

I was wondering though, if a change in saddle. I.e Selle Italia flite to Fi'zi:k Arione might contribute to any knee issues...?

The problem was particularly annoying on saturday so I gave a lot of time to looking at the measurements on each bike in the afternoon. And have now moved the saddle back a bit also as this seemed to be mentioned a fair bit on my internet research. Anyhow, just wondered what people's thoughts were on knees/saddles and the like...

[Stu Merckx Man]

i was having trouble on my winter bike too. thought it was the saddle, moved it forward and back, then the cleats, which did help becaus the knee cap was not tracking properly. but i still had some pain. then i made the saddle a bit higher and it was fine. my pain was also on the top of the pedal stroke. i think it was the IT tendon or something.

[Andrew G]

Shouldn't be the saddle, probably just saddle position. If the pedals are different to the ones you have on the Trek then the saddle height won't always transfer over as the stack height of the pedal/cleat can be different. Is there no float at all? I don't think many people use a completely locked cleat (eg black ones on Look) as you have to have the position absolutely perfect.

[Robh]

Probably an obvious observation, different cranks will mean different seat heights. Is your seat height different on the 2 bikes? On the Giant it will need to be 2.5cm higher.

Also regarding measuring the bike how did you do it? Did you use a plumbline and take all the measurements from the center of the bottom bracket?

How about riding the Trek for a week to see if the knee pain goes away? Or transfer the pedals on the trek to the Giant if you have no float on the new pedals?

Rob

[-Adam-]

Same pedals, well the new 105's instead of old Ultegras but same cleats so technically the same pedals. Only difference being I set the new ones a lot tighter than the ones on the trek. So where as on the trek my feet could twist a couple of degrees before starting to dis-engage, the pedals on the giant hold my foot dead still. So im gonna loosen 'em off to allow tme foot to move a little more and see what happens.

Saddle height on the Giant is indeed about 2.5mm higher than the Trek Rob.

Measuring the bike I just measured centre of BB to top of saddle, then tip of saddle to centre of bars. I think I may have messed up the saddle fore/aft position. As when I looked at the distance from bb to nose of saddle (horizontally using a plumb line) i noticed that the tip of the saddle was almost ahead of the bb, this has now been changed. So hopwfully the changes I have made will allow the knee to work proper, like

I don't have anypain when riding out of the saddle or off the bike however, so I am assuming it must be minor fitting details...

[Toks]

It sounds like you've sourced the problem Adam - pedals. In my experience no amount of seat changing will improve that situation. I switched from looks to speedplay cause of knee trouble and my right knee has been perfect since. Also you may need to take a couple of days off the bike so any swelling in your knee can go down otherswise you may exacerbate the problem

[Phil S]

Unless I'm mistaken the spring system in SPD-SL pedals doesn't affect float, just the tension which retains the cleat. Float should remain the same whatever the tension, I think. It's only the red cleats that have zero-float (?)
Could be a slight difference in the setup, combined with not riding for a while and lack of in-season flexibility. I would try some good stretching and see if this helps, but also check your measurements again. The important ones are saddle height from centre of BB as a vertical measurement and your sit distance from BB as a horizontal measurement. Saddle nose to centre of stem may be different as Arione is a very different shape from SLR and you will most likely sit on a different part of the saddle.

[-Adam-]

You're right about the SPD-SLs Phil, only my older ones float a little bit as they are not set so tight, even though I use the red cleats...

Have done loads of riding in the past 8 weeks or so, so im guessing the flexibility should be OK. But what sort of stretches are you talking about?

Also, Can you explain the sit distance from BB as a horizontal measurement. Do you mean how far the saddle is back from the BB? What sort of difference will it make if one bike is 2cm further forward say?

Also, Does anyone think that the shape of a saddle might hinder free movement of one's legs. I.e could the shape of a saddle trap a nerve, or restrict the movement of a ligament or tendon in the groin area?

[MJ_1993]

Adam I had the same problem, and it was that the frame was too small (50cm), I now ride a sloping 56cm and its fine

[Rob C]

[quote]loads of riding in the past 8 weeks or so, so im guessing the flexibility should be OK

[mrP(Boonen)VT]

Sean, I think there's a clue here...

[quote]the pedals on the giant hold my foot dead still

[Colin Steadman]

[quote]only my older ones float a little bit as they are not set so tight, even though I use the red cleats..

[mrP(Boonen)VT]

Well, that's clear info from Shimano then

To the bunker

[Phil S]

I wouldn't start using the red cleats until I felt I was fully dialled into a new bike, witch to yellow until you feel comfortable.

What I mean by position relative to BB is this -

Your height from the BB should remain a constant whatever bike you ride, but you must take into account factors that could be different such as pedal stack, shoe stack and you need to make sure you measure to the right part of the top of the saddle when you do these measurements.

Second, your fore-aft postition determines how your leg works relative to its position over the pedals (or to look at it another way its distance from the BB). If your saddle is to far back or forward you load different muscle groups, and the knee is the joint between the two.

Also worth checking cleat position on your shoe.

As far as stretching is concerned I go through a routine of stetching the hams, the quads, then a figure-of-four stretch for the glutes and the muscles down the side of your leg, then touch my toes or the floor, then I do some free-form stretching which looks kinda random, like a cat having a good stretch