So all you experienced racers out there, can you help advise us lowly fourth cat racers on the most appropriate tactics to play as a team.
Scenario
Four riders, one of which is a bit stronger than the others.
a. Do we encourage stronger rider to make a break. How do we stop the peloton from speeding up too much to chase him down. If we sit on the front can we slow down the peleton?
b. Protect stronger rider throughout race near front of peleton and then encourage break in closing stages of race if stronger rider is not a sprinter? Then attempt slowing tactics if this is possible?
c. Try and make a break as a team with the risk of peleton catching us later in the race with no one in the peleton to help keep it at a slow pace if that is possible. Benefits are all team getting in on the results, but of course unlikely as risk of peleton catching.
d. Get three guys off the front and then I will crash and bring down the rest of the peleton, probably easiest and most likely to happen anyway.
So what are percentages of an early break staying away on a rolling course in 3/4 cat race? I know the percentages are quite low for pro races, is that the same for 3/4 cat races.
What do you reckon?
Team Tactics
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Team Tactics
by Marek » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:43 pm
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by Rob » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:44 pm
tricky one, being a fourth cat race, from my experiences, as soon as the flag goes down someones trying to make a break...hmmm hmmm....ajay...
when you try to break everyone follows, and then no one wants to take their turn at the front to help...it gets frustrating.
id say, all four sit together in middle of bunch, half way through teh race, start playing through and off, and just hope that you drop as many people as possible, you tend to get about 6 follow, but thats when the fun starts, cos one by one you see them dropping off.
all stick on each others wheels, very important, dont let anyone muscle in in front of you, be strong, use the elbow and give a lil verbal if they push their luck, put some real tension into the race!!!
plan whos going to be the main sprint man, and the remaining people play dirty and block out teh main contenders!!
urm, ok, enough rambling, ask jayne or big mig, they know what theyre on about!
lol
sorry
when you try to break everyone follows, and then no one wants to take their turn at the front to help...it gets frustrating.
id say, all four sit together in middle of bunch, half way through teh race, start playing through and off, and just hope that you drop as many people as possible, you tend to get about 6 follow, but thats when the fun starts, cos one by one you see them dropping off.
all stick on each others wheels, very important, dont let anyone muscle in in front of you, be strong, use the elbow and give a lil verbal if they push their luck, put some real tension into the race!!!
plan whos going to be the main sprint man, and the remaining people play dirty and block out teh main contenders!!
urm, ok, enough rambling, ask jayne or big mig, they know what theyre on about!
lol
sorry
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team tactics
by steve c » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:26 am
hi marek
I know ZERO about cycling as a team
and my first year's road racing was spent just trying to reach the same
level as those a bit farther down the road
lots of people will give you advice about this and that but try to make sure that anyone that is giving it is well qualified or even better has done it or doing it at a good level.
the best advice i was given last year was go get yourself a copy of the roadie's bible...
SERIOUS CYCLING
by Edmund r. burke, phd
ISBN 0-7360-4129-X
you won't go far wrong as it really is worth getting.
don't know how much it cost as i got someone else to buy it for me
even got a section on strategies and tactics but that's towards the back of the book.
ENJOY YOUR RACE SUNDAY FOLKS
might pop over myself if my legs have recovered (don't ask)
regards
steve c
jeez is that the time ....
I know ZERO about cycling as a team
and my first year's road racing was spent just trying to reach the same
level as those a bit farther down the road
lots of people will give you advice about this and that but try to make sure that anyone that is giving it is well qualified or even better has done it or doing it at a good level.
the best advice i was given last year was go get yourself a copy of the roadie's bible...
SERIOUS CYCLING
by Edmund r. burke, phd
ISBN 0-7360-4129-X
you won't go far wrong as it really is worth getting.
don't know how much it cost as i got someone else to buy it for me
even got a section on strategies and tactics but that's towards the back of the book.
ENJOY YOUR RACE SUNDAY FOLKS
might pop over myself if my legs have recovered (don't ask)
regards
steve c
jeez is that the time
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by the other Steve Dennis » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:17 pm
Sounds like you guys had a lot of fun on Sunday - Well done all.
In tems of tactics - you say you all worked to bring back the break which contained a fellow Addiscombe rider.......'mmmmmm
I'm sure it doesnt really matter..
Once again well done on being out there, being competitive, spirited and getting the colours seen.
In tems of tactics - you say you all worked to bring back the break which contained a fellow Addiscombe rider.......'mmmmmm
I'm sure it doesnt really matter..
Once again well done on being out there, being competitive, spirited and getting the colours seen.
-
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by ajay khandelwal » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:39 pm
Marek, I hope your bike is now re-built. I saw them re-welding it at GB's on Sat. Tactics.
1. Have a bike.
2. Run the race
The thing about tactics, is that as soon as you can actually walk the walk, or ride the ride, you find yourself promoted (or rather 'they' find themselves promoted). So, last year we talked about tactics, but everytime some one capable of running the show, with the head and legs came up, they'd get promoted. Also, as soon as a group of us became familiar riding together, the strong rider would get promoted. Or as Chris C says, you can talk a lot of tactics, but just end up scrambling around, keeping contact with the race. We had some minor tactics as an ACC team last year in the fourth cat races. But we would have had wins and positions with or without tactics, because we had so many good and committed riders enjoying themselves out there, giving it a good go. Riding strongly, towing the bunch along, just because they could (Alan B.) In particular, we rode assertively, supporting each other, pushing new comers in to the verges, making the most noise, and taking each other's wheel draft's like a divine right. Moral support and chat was key too, giving other riders the message that we were the dominant team, and giving them the signal to stay clear. It makes it safer, because no-one wanted to cut us up, because we'd pounce on them straight afterwards and mash up their bikes. The strong riders like Oliver, always promised to help me out, but by lap 5 he was half a lap clear! Similarly, Rob's acceleration on the final lap was like a catapult, so I couldn't hold his slip-stream the whole way. We alway dreamed of a day when we would have a four man/woman ACC break away, just riding clear of the main bunch, but we never quite managed it, as Darren, Alan, Ramon and Huw (and others) were promoted quickly. Technically, the simplest way to win at Hillingdon, is to stay in the bunch, middle is fine, and get your team mates to chase any break attempts, finding position in front 1/3 on the penultimate lap, following a good wheel on the last lap, and unleashing a spint on the last section of the gradient finish. Hey, but that's easy (it worked for me on a 55km ride, much to Huw's annoyance). Much better, and more like 3rd cat riding, would be to get an ACC break going, perhaps with 1 guest rider, and just definitively blow away the rest of the race. This year with Toks and Marek starting the season 4th cat, we have some good lieutenants to lead the way. We' ve got the through part, Ill do the 'off'.
1. Have a bike.
2. Run the race
The thing about tactics, is that as soon as you can actually walk the walk, or ride the ride, you find yourself promoted (or rather 'they' find themselves promoted). So, last year we talked about tactics, but everytime some one capable of running the show, with the head and legs came up, they'd get promoted. Also, as soon as a group of us became familiar riding together, the strong rider would get promoted. Or as Chris C says, you can talk a lot of tactics, but just end up scrambling around, keeping contact with the race. We had some minor tactics as an ACC team last year in the fourth cat races. But we would have had wins and positions with or without tactics, because we had so many good and committed riders enjoying themselves out there, giving it a good go. Riding strongly, towing the bunch along, just because they could (Alan B.) In particular, we rode assertively, supporting each other, pushing new comers in to the verges, making the most noise, and taking each other's wheel draft's like a divine right. Moral support and chat was key too, giving other riders the message that we were the dominant team, and giving them the signal to stay clear. It makes it safer, because no-one wanted to cut us up, because we'd pounce on them straight afterwards and mash up their bikes. The strong riders like Oliver, always promised to help me out, but by lap 5 he was half a lap clear! Similarly, Rob's acceleration on the final lap was like a catapult, so I couldn't hold his slip-stream the whole way. We alway dreamed of a day when we would have a four man/woman ACC break away, just riding clear of the main bunch, but we never quite managed it, as Darren, Alan, Ramon and Huw (and others) were promoted quickly. Technically, the simplest way to win at Hillingdon, is to stay in the bunch, middle is fine, and get your team mates to chase any break attempts, finding position in front 1/3 on the penultimate lap, following a good wheel on the last lap, and unleashing a spint on the last section of the gradient finish. Hey, but that's easy (it worked for me on a 55km ride, much to Huw's annoyance). Much better, and more like 3rd cat riding, would be to get an ACC break going, perhaps with 1 guest rider, and just definitively blow away the rest of the race. This year with Toks and Marek starting the season 4th cat, we have some good lieutenants to lead the way. We' ve got the through part, Ill do the 'off'.
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by ajay khandelwal » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:39 pm
Marek, I hope your bike is now re-built. I saw them re-welding it at GB's on Sat. Tactics.
1. Have a bike.
2. Run the race
The thing about tactics, is that as soon as you can actually walk the walk, or ride the ride, you find yourself promoted (or rather 'they' find themselves promoted). So, last year we talked about tactics, but everytime some one capable of running the show, with the head and legs came up, they'd get promoted. Also, as soon as a group of us became familiar riding together, the strong rider would get promoted. Or as Chris C says, you can talk a lot of tactics, but just end up scrambling around, keeping contact with the race. We had some minor tactics as an ACC team last year in the fourth cat races. But we would have had wins and positions with or without tactics, because we had so many good and committed riders enjoying themselves out there, giving it a good go. Riding strongly, towing the bunch along, just because they could (Alan B.) In particular, we rode assertively, supporting each other, pushing new comers in to the verges, making the most noise, and taking each other's wheel draft's like a divine right. Moral support and chat was key too, giving other riders the message that we were the dominant team, and giving them the signal to stay clear. It makes it safer, because no-one wanted to cut us up, because we'd pounce on them straight afterwards and mash up their bikes. The strong riders like Oliver, always promised to help me out, but by lap 5 he was half a lap clear! Similarly, Rob's acceleration on the final lap was like a catapult, so I couldn't hold his slip-stream the whole way. We alway dreamed of a day when we would have a four man/woman ACC break away, just riding clear of the main bunch, but we never quite managed it, as Darren, Alan, Ramon and Huw (and others) were promoted quickly. Technically, the simplest way to win at Hillingdon, is to stay in the bunch, middle is fine, and get your team mates to chase any break attempts, finding position in front 1/3 on the penultimate lap, following a good wheel on the last lap, and unleashing a spint on the last section of the gradient finish. Hey, but that's easy (it worked for me on a 55km ride, much to Huw's annoyance). Much better, and more like 3rd cat riding, would be to get an ACC break going, perhaps with 1 guest rider, and just definitively blow away the rest of the race. This year with Toks and Marek starting the season 4th cat, we have some good lieutenants to lead the way. We' ve got the through part, Ill do the 'off'.
1. Have a bike.
2. Run the race
The thing about tactics, is that as soon as you can actually walk the walk, or ride the ride, you find yourself promoted (or rather 'they' find themselves promoted). So, last year we talked about tactics, but everytime some one capable of running the show, with the head and legs came up, they'd get promoted. Also, as soon as a group of us became familiar riding together, the strong rider would get promoted. Or as Chris C says, you can talk a lot of tactics, but just end up scrambling around, keeping contact with the race. We had some minor tactics as an ACC team last year in the fourth cat races. But we would have had wins and positions with or without tactics, because we had so many good and committed riders enjoying themselves out there, giving it a good go. Riding strongly, towing the bunch along, just because they could (Alan B.) In particular, we rode assertively, supporting each other, pushing new comers in to the verges, making the most noise, and taking each other's wheel draft's like a divine right. Moral support and chat was key too, giving other riders the message that we were the dominant team, and giving them the signal to stay clear. It makes it safer, because no-one wanted to cut us up, because we'd pounce on them straight afterwards and mash up their bikes. The strong riders like Oliver, always promised to help me out, but by lap 5 he was half a lap clear! Similarly, Rob's acceleration on the final lap was like a catapult, so I couldn't hold his slip-stream the whole way. We alway dreamed of a day when we would have a four man/woman ACC break away, just riding clear of the main bunch, but we never quite managed it, as Darren, Alan, Ramon and Huw (and others) were promoted quickly. Technically, the simplest way to win at Hillingdon, is to stay in the bunch, middle is fine, and get your team mates to chase any break attempts, finding position in front 1/3 on the penultimate lap, following a good wheel on the last lap, and unleashing a spint on the last section of the gradient finish. Hey, but that's easy (it worked for me on a 55km ride, much to Huw's annoyance). Much better, and more like 3rd cat riding, would be to get an ACC break going, perhaps with 1 guest rider, and just definitively blow away the rest of the race. This year with Toks and Marek starting the season 4th cat, we have some good lieutenants to lead the way. We' ve got the through part, Ill do the 'off'.
- ajay khandelwal
- lives on this board 24/7!!!
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Marek, Luke, Dave, AJ
by huw williams » Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:58 am
Good to see you thininking about tactics because that menas you were strong enough to be "not just hanging on" in the group which a lot of 4ths are in their first few races.
In traditional terms Steve is right , if Darren was up the road in a break you didn't really want to be active in the chase group.
That said, the main reason your doing 4ths races is experience and getting points to get you into thirds, so it's understandable in early races to race for yourself if it pans out that way. After all, if your stonger than the majority of the bunch you're not going to benefit from sitting in it for the whole race. Attack for the sheer hell of it, chase down all the breaks, attack again, the training and experience will really benefit you. And always, ALWAYS go for the sprint at the end, even if your sprinting for 30th.
Tuesday nights at Hillingdon start on 6th April and the 4ths races there are ideal for practicing your tactics and getting points. Suggest we all go over together for the first few weeks (train over, ride back) and we'll soon have everyone in 3rds where we can start planning tactics properly race by race.
In a perfect world summer could then look like:
Tuesday: E/1/2/3 race Hillingdon
Thursday: Surrey League Handicap (when local) or Eastway E/1/2/3/4/J/W Crit (Excelent series)
Sat or Sun: Road race
(Show that schedule to the missus and await the divorce papers!)
Doing the 1 hour crits with E/1/2 riders is a bit daunting at first (Especially at Eastway where you have to do about 30 hill reps at MHR) but the best way to improve. You really notice the difference when you then go for points in a 3rds or 4ths only race after a few of those.
In traditional terms Steve is right , if Darren was up the road in a break you didn't really want to be active in the chase group.
That said, the main reason your doing 4ths races is experience and getting points to get you into thirds, so it's understandable in early races to race for yourself if it pans out that way. After all, if your stonger than the majority of the bunch you're not going to benefit from sitting in it for the whole race. Attack for the sheer hell of it, chase down all the breaks, attack again, the training and experience will really benefit you. And always, ALWAYS go for the sprint at the end, even if your sprinting for 30th.
Tuesday nights at Hillingdon start on 6th April and the 4ths races there are ideal for practicing your tactics and getting points. Suggest we all go over together for the first few weeks (train over, ride back) and we'll soon have everyone in 3rds where we can start planning tactics properly race by race.
In a perfect world summer could then look like:
Tuesday: E/1/2/3 race Hillingdon
Thursday: Surrey League Handicap (when local) or Eastway E/1/2/3/4/J/W Crit (Excelent series)
Sat or Sun: Road race
(Show that schedule to the missus and await the divorce papers!)
Doing the 1 hour crits with E/1/2 riders is a bit daunting at first (Especially at Eastway where you have to do about 30 hill reps at MHR) but the best way to improve. You really notice the difference when you then go for points in a 3rds or 4ths only race after a few of those.
-
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Marek, Luke, Dave, AJ
by huw williams » Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:59 am
Good to see you thininking about tactics because that menas you were strong enough to be "not just hanging on" in the group which a lot of 4ths are in their first few races.
In traditional terms Steve is right , if Darren was up the road in a break you didn't really want to be active in the chase group.
That said, the main reason your doing 4ths races is experience and getting points to get you into thirds, so it's understandable in early races to race for yourself if it pans out that way. After all, if your stonger than the majority of the bunch you're not going to benefit from sitting in it for the whole race. Attack for the sheer hell of it, chase down all the breaks, attack again, the training and experience will really benefit you. And always, ALWAYS go for the sprint at the end, even if your sprinting for 30th.
Tuesday nights at Hillingdon start on 6th April and the 4ths races there are ideal for practicing your tactics and getting points. Suggest we all go over together for the first few weeks (train over, ride back) and we'll soon have everyone in 3rds where we can start planning tactics properly race by race.
In a perfect world summer could then look like:
Tuesday: E/1/2/3 race Hillingdon
Thursday: Surrey League Handicap (when local) or Eastway E/1/2/3/4/J/W Crit (Excelent series)
Sat or Sun: Road race
(Show that schedule to the missus and await the divorce papers!)
Doing the 1 hour crits with E/1/2 riders is a bit daunting at first (Especially at Eastway where you have to do about 30 hill reps at MHR) but the best way to improve. You really notice the difference when you then go for points in a 3rds or 4ths only race after a few of those.
In traditional terms Steve is right , if Darren was up the road in a break you didn't really want to be active in the chase group.
That said, the main reason your doing 4ths races is experience and getting points to get you into thirds, so it's understandable in early races to race for yourself if it pans out that way. After all, if your stonger than the majority of the bunch you're not going to benefit from sitting in it for the whole race. Attack for the sheer hell of it, chase down all the breaks, attack again, the training and experience will really benefit you. And always, ALWAYS go for the sprint at the end, even if your sprinting for 30th.
Tuesday nights at Hillingdon start on 6th April and the 4ths races there are ideal for practicing your tactics and getting points. Suggest we all go over together for the first few weeks (train over, ride back) and we'll soon have everyone in 3rds where we can start planning tactics properly race by race.
In a perfect world summer could then look like:
Tuesday: E/1/2/3 race Hillingdon
Thursday: Surrey League Handicap (when local) or Eastway E/1/2/3/4/J/W Crit (Excelent series)
Sat or Sun: Road race
(Show that schedule to the missus and await the divorce papers!)
Doing the 1 hour crits with E/1/2 riders is a bit daunting at first (Especially at Eastway where you have to do about 30 hill reps at MHR) but the best way to improve. You really notice the difference when you then go for points in a 3rds or 4ths only race after a few of those.
-
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by the other Steve Dennis » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:34 pm
Couldnt agree with Huw more.
I've been following in the wheel tracks of Keith Knights attack, attack, attack philosophy for years, hence making a break at the firstcorner of Eastway, towing the whole bunch around Goodwood for a few laps etc and sitting in the wheels of Coffey and Tayor at the track. I moved up to third last year but probably will end this year a 5th or 4th cat in another country! Sure you make many mistakes, but
a - it's a lot more fun than sitting in and winning an easy sprint
b - the other riders start to notice you and you start winning psychologically
Keep going, keep making mistakes, kepp having a laugh and keep getting better.
Cheers
I've been following in the wheel tracks of Keith Knights attack, attack, attack philosophy for years, hence making a break at the firstcorner of Eastway, towing the whole bunch around Goodwood for a few laps etc and sitting in the wheels of Coffey and Tayor at the track. I moved up to third last year but probably will end this year a 5th or 4th cat in another country! Sure you make many mistakes, but
a - it's a lot more fun than sitting in and winning an easy sprint
b - the other riders start to notice you and you start winning psychologically
Keep going, keep making mistakes, kepp having a laugh and keep getting better.
Cheers
-
the other Steve Dennis - lives on this board 24/7!!!
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:46 pm
- Location: Chicago
by Brett P » Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:29 pm
I think you have to treat each race differently and not go into thinking ?ok, today I?m just going to sit in the bunch and win the sprint?
What happens if there?s a break 5km from the start that stays away?
My experience in Cat. 3 ? 4 races (all 3 of them) has led me to believe that the majority of riders aren?t going to be strong enough to jump off the front and do a solo 20 mile break to win. BUT 4 or 5 riders, maybe yes. There are a lot of TT?ers (god help them) who have the capability of jumping off the front with 5 miles to go and win. So you have to know what to look for in the bunch and keep your wits about you so when a big strong TT?er who knows he can?t sprint goes, make sure you?re on his wheel.
Another tip, don?t go round him at 100%.... try and give the impression that you?re struggling so he won?t kick again. Then with 300m to go?? see you later!
When you get up into the E,1,2 races you can?t have the same complacency. Riders like Tony Gibb have the capability of going from the gun and staying away for 100miles. I?m still trying to figure out who?s who and what way to approach the big guns. It?s a whole different ball game when you?re in a E,1,2 race. I thought I could sprint (when in Cat.2) now Elite guys go past me like I?m standing still :0(
Like Steve said, keep on trying.
BM
What happens if there?s a break 5km from the start that stays away?
My experience in Cat. 3 ? 4 races (all 3 of them) has led me to believe that the majority of riders aren?t going to be strong enough to jump off the front and do a solo 20 mile break to win. BUT 4 or 5 riders, maybe yes. There are a lot of TT?ers (god help them) who have the capability of jumping off the front with 5 miles to go and win. So you have to know what to look for in the bunch and keep your wits about you so when a big strong TT?er who knows he can?t sprint goes, make sure you?re on his wheel.
Another tip, don?t go round him at 100%.... try and give the impression that you?re struggling so he won?t kick again. Then with 300m to go?? see you later!
When you get up into the E,1,2 races you can?t have the same complacency. Riders like Tony Gibb have the capability of going from the gun and staying away for 100miles. I?m still trying to figure out who?s who and what way to approach the big guns. It?s a whole different ball game when you?re in a E,1,2 race. I thought I could sprint (when in Cat.2) now Elite guys go past me like I?m standing still :0(
Like Steve said, keep on trying.
BM
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