CR 23rd Feb

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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Steve B » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:59 pm

[quote="Antloony"][quote="Steve B"]Turned on to the A217 with Antloony and with it being mostly down hill to home from there I wasn't too bad, until he blasted off down the mad mile, leaving me, with no power in my legs whatsoever to watch him ride off in front of me.


Sorry Steve, I didn't realise I'd dropped you untill I turned around and couldn't see you. Feel bad now as had I known you'd had a really bad day I'd have slowed the pace down and let you sit on my wheel till we got near your place. :(


Ant, no need to apologise mate, it wasn't your fault. I was just moaning about myself being so useless. Good to meet you anyway.
Another one for the training group I think :)


[quote="Robh"]Don't people carry food on them these days? I know I do.

I think a lot of people underestimate how important nutrition is...

Rob, I hear what say about carrying food, and yes it is essential if riding bigger distances, but yesterday would have taken a lot more than a cake to keep me going. Two pints of George's blood might have done it :wink: . I've never carried food on a club run, and never needed to either. Breakfast, usually 4 weetabix, and then cake at the cafe is plenty to keep me going, along with energy drink, till I get home, even when riding in the training group last year.

The problem yesterday was that I rode too hard (cooking myself) after not riding hard for 7 weeks, and not at all for the first 4 of those, except a few light turbo's to keep the knee moving. My body just didn't like what I was doing to it, so it gave up. I'm going to have to show it who's boss :?

Does anyone else take and eat food on the club run?

Steve
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Andrew G » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:05 pm

I do Steve but that's mainly just because I can't eat before leaving, my stomach just doesn't like food too early so tend to have a cereal/energy bar at CSS. 4 weetabix now that's a man's breakfast :D .

Having bonked badly once I don't want to do it again if I can avoid it so tend to have a spare bar in my pocket whenever I'm on the bike (except commuting). It normally just goes back in the box when I get home but as they're so small I'd rather carry it for back up.
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Marek » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:05 pm

Nope, but I have to admit that this weekend I was also feeling decidedly dodgy on my way back to East Grinstead. Sometimes it can just be down to what you had to eat the day before and what time. e.g. did you have an early dinner on Friday night and therefore maybe you were a little hungrier than usual.

I tend to carry around an emergency gel, but unfortunately I had an emergency a while back and forgot to replace it. Always worthwhile having something just in case.

Cheers

Marek...
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Snoop Doug » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:25 pm

Sure do Steve - never go out without a bit of grub. Essential emergency back up and who knows, given the caff queues these days it's increasingly likely that a refreshment stop might prove to be impractical for those in a hurry to get back......

Sorry to hear you had a rough ride.

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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Robh » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:31 pm

The following text below is from Hammer Nutrtion, most of my rides are very early in the morning like 4:30am during the week so I don't have time for breakfast :-

OK, you're convinced that it's a good idea to eat at least three hours prior to the start of your race. “But wait,” you say. “My race starts at 7 a.m. Are you telling me I have to get up at 3 a.m. or so just to eat?” Well, you could get up to eat if you're so inclined, but you don't have to. The fuel you've got stored in the muscles? It's going to be there, full strength, even after a night-long fast (really). In the morning your brain may be saying, “I'm hungry,” but your muscles are saying, “Hey, we're good to go.”

Bottom line: do not sacrifice sleep just to eat. If you've got an early morning race start, the best strategy is:

Eat a high quality meal the night before (topping off liver glycogen stores)
Get an adequate amount of sleep
Have 100-200 calories of easily digested fuel (Hammer Gel is ideal) 5-10 minutes prior to the start of the race
That's right, 5-10 minutes prior, not one or two hours prior. The key, in terms of muscle glycogen depletion rates, is in the timing. If you must eat before the start of your race, you need to complete consumption three hours prior. If that's not logistically feasible, have a little something 5-10 minutes prior. Do that and you won't expend your hard-earned glycogen too rapidly.



If you consume high glycemic carbohydrates such as simple sugars (or even the preferred complex carbohydrates such as starches and maltodextrins) within three hours of exercise, you can expect the following, with possible negative effects on performance:

Rapidly elevated blood sugar causes excess insulin release, leading to hypoglycemia, an abnormally low level of glucose in the blood.
High insulin levels inhibit lipid mobilization during aerobic exercise, which means reduced fats-to-fuels conversion. Our ability to utilize stored fatty acids as energy largely determines our performance, which is why we can continue to exercise when our caloric intake falls far below our energy expenditure. We want to enhance, not impede, our stored fat utilization pathways.
A high insulin level will induce blood sugar into muscle cells, which increases the rate of carbohydrate metabolism, hence rapid carbohydrate fuel depletion. In simple terms: high insulin means faster muscle glycogen depletion.
You must complete your pre-race fueling three or more hours prior to the start to allow adequate time for insulin and blood glucose to normalize. After three hours, hormonal balance is restored, and you won’t be at risk for increased glycogen depletion. Eating within three hours of a race promotes faster release/depletion of both liver and muscle glycogen and inhibits fat utilization. The combination of accelerated glycogen depletion and disruption of your primary long-distance fuel availability can devastate your performance.

But I’m hungry!
Recall that I mentioned earlier that muscle glycogen, the main fuel recruited for the first 60-90 minutes of exercise, remains unaffected by a nightlong fast. When you awaken in the morning, you haven’t lost your primary fuel supply, and can’t add to it by eating within an hour or two of exercise. That’s absolutely correct, and believe it or not, being hungry before an event won't inhibit performance.

However, hard-training athletes often do wake up very hungry and feel they need to eat something before their workout or race. This is especially true for half and full iron-distance triathletes, who start very early in the morning in the water, swimming for up to an hour or more where consuming food is not possible.

What to do? Try either of the following suggestions to help with this problem:

Just start anyway, realizing that hunger is not a performance inhibitor, and begin fueling shortly after you start, when you get into a comfortable rhythm. The hunger sensation will diminish almost as soon as you begin to exercise, and you’ll actually be benefiting, not hurting, your performance by following this procedure. You can safely use Sustained Energy, Perpetuem, HEED or Hammer Gel, or any combination thereof, as soon as you want after exercise commences. For details regarding appropriate amounts, please refer to the article “Proper Caloric Intake During Endurance Exercise.”
If you feel that you absolutely must eat, consume 100-200 calories about five minutes before start time. By the time these calories are digested and blood sugar levels are elevated, you’ll be well into your race, and glycogen depletion will not be negatively affected. In this regard, good choices are one or two servings of Hammer Gel or a generous drink from a premixed bottle of Sustained Energy or Perpetuem. This strategy is especially appropriate for triathletes who will hit the water first and not have a chance to eat right away. Small amounts of nutrient-dense fuels, such as those named above, go a long way to stanching hunger pangs.
Sleep or eat?
Should you get up during the wee morning hours just to get in a meal three hours before your race or workout? My answer is NO—rest will help you more. Much restorative physiology occurs during sleep, so don’t sacrifice sleep just to eat. If you’re a fit athlete, one who has been replenishing carbohydrates immediately after each exercise session, you have approximately 60-90 minutes of muscle glycogen, your premium fuel, available. As long as you begin fueling shortly after the race begins, perhaps 10-20 minutes after the start, your performance will not be affected negatively. If you start fueling shortly after your race begins, it’s actually OK to start your race a little on the hungry side. Topping off liver glycogen stores is always a good idea, but not at the expense of sacrificing sleep, and certainly not at the expense of depleting muscle glycogen stores too quickly (by eating too soon before exercise).

Are there any exceptions to the three-hour rule?
When you’re competing in races in the 90-minute range or shorter (personally, I prefer an hour limit), fasting three hours prior to the start of the race is not necessary. Consuming some easily digested calories an hour or two prior to the start will not negatively affect performance, and may actually enhance it. Here’s why:

As we’ve discussed earlier, when you consume calories sooner than three hours prior to the start of a race, you accelerate the rate at which your body burns its finite amounts of muscle glycogen stores. In events lasting longer than 60-90 minutes, refraining from calorie consumption for the three-hour period prior to the start is crucial because you want to preserve your glycogen stores, not accelerate their depletion. Muscle glycogen is the first fuel that the body will use when exercise commences, and your body only has a limited supply of this premium fuel. If your workout or race goes beyond the 60-90 minute mark, you don't want to do anything that will accelerate muscle glycogen utilization. However, when you consume calories within three hours of a race, that's exactly what will happen; you'll increase the rate at which your glycogen is burned.

During shorter distance races, however, accelerated rates of glycogen depletion/utilization are not problematic. You don’t need the calories for energy, but the presence of carbohydrates will elevate glycogen utilization. In a short race, that’s what you want.

Dr. Misner explains that prior to shorter-duration races, “… consuming a few easily digested carbohydrates [such as a serving or two of HEED or Hammer Gel] will advance performance, because carbohydrates consumed prior to exercise make the body super-expend its glycogen stores like a flood gate wide open." In other words, if you eat something 1-2 hours prior to the start of a short-duration race, thus causing the insulin "flood gates" to open, yes, you will be depleting your glycogen stores at maximum rates. However, at this distance it’s a beneficial effect, as glycogen depletion is not an issue when the race is over within at most 90 minutes.

This advice assumes that you have been effectively refueling your body after each workout, as this is the primary way to increase muscle glycogen (see the article “Recovery—A Crucial Component of Athletic Success” for details).

Bottom line: Fast three hours prior to the start of a longer-duration event (60-90+ minutes). For shorter events, consuming a small amount of fuel an hour to two prior to the start may enhance performance.

Summary & pre-race meal suggestions
You work so hard throughout your training, making sure you tune your diet, supplement program, training, and recovery to exactly fit your personal needs. Following these steps regarding your pre-race meal will put the final touches on all of your hard work, giving you the best advantage for your important race.

Eat a pre-race meal of 200-400 calories at least three hours before exercise.
Focus on complex carbs, starches, and a little protein for your pre-race meal.
Avoid high fiber, simple sugars, and high fat in your pre-race meal.
If you must, consume a small amount of your supplemental fuel (Hammer Gel, etc.) about five minutes before exercise.
Make sure that you re-supply your muscle glycogen by eating a good recovery meal after your workouts.
Any of these pre-race meal suggestions will keep you in the preferred 200-400 calorie range
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Toks » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:32 am

[quote="Steve B"][ I've never carried food on a club run, and never needed to either. Breakfast, usually 4 weetabix, and then cake at the cafe is plenty to keep me going, along with energy drink, till I get home, even when riding in the training group last year.

The problem yesterday was that I rode too hard (cooking myself) after not riding hard for 7 weeks, and not at all for the first 4 of those, except a few light turbo's to keep the knee moving. My body just didn't like what I was doing to it, so it gave up. I'm going to have to show it who's boss :?

Does anyone else take and eat food on the club run?

Steve
Wow are you serious Steve? On any ride longer than two hours I'll have at least a 2 or 3 of energy bars.
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Toks » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:00 am

[quote="Marek"]We also had a guy come along from Rotherham who normally rides with the Planet X team (Kevin Dawson and others I think he said). He was pretty strong, but as he did not know the lie of the land we let him cook himself on the flat sections before the hills and then we would come past and toast him which was fun. :twisted: He said that Kevin Dawson can put out 450 watts for an hour and a half. :!:
.
450watts for 90mins :shock: :shock: I'm not sure how big KD is but that's better than most international pro's. If that figure were true he'd be ridng the Tour and not blasting up and down UK A Roads
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby mrP(Boonen)VT » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:12 am

KD is a big guy, and in TT mode sits very upright (not very aero) so has to move a lot of air out of the way, and since he can ride an average 30+mph for 100 miles, I guess he must be in that ball park.
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Andrew G » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:13 am

As you know Toks I don't do Watts but Mr Dawson is a ridiculously good time trialist. He's won the BAR (average speed for best 50, 100 and 12hr) about 8 or 9 out of 11 times in recent years I think. If memory serves his average speed for his BAR is over 24mph and probably closer to 25mph. He's very fast.
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Dombo » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:40 pm

Sorry if this is a numpty question but how does for example 300 calories translate into actual food? Gels are easy to judge but what of the stuff we normally eat?
My normal pre-CR breakfast is two boiled eggs, buttered toast, slice of ham, porridge with milk and sugar or honey and two cups of tea plus glass of OJ. I'll bring a snickers bar or banana along for emergencies.
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Ivor » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:08 pm

[quote="Dombo"]Sorry if this is a numpty question but how does for example 300 calories translate into actual food? Gels are easy to judge but what of the stuff we normally eat?
My normal pre-CR breakfast is two boiled eggs, buttered toast, slice of ham, porridge with milk and sugar or honey and two cups of tea plus glass of OJ. I'll bring a snickers bar or banana along for emergencies.

All depends on how big portions are, whether you use full fat or skimmed milk and so on.
but for your list a quick check shows:

Eggs: 80 calories each
Buttered toast: 80 calories/slice
Porridge (w semi skimmed): 250 calories
Orange: 90/200ml
Tea: 30/mug

So for your list: 720 calories. (ish)
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Andrew G » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:11 pm

How do you manage to get on your bike after that lot :shock: .
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby Robh » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:37 pm

I hope you eat those calories 3hrs before your ride?
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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby EdO » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:59 pm

Sorry for the late post. Didn't get back till 7pm on Saturday after alot of running around doing general day to day stuff then had to go out again for a meal.
....and as for yesterday I was out all day in chinatown 8)

I managed the best part of the 20s on Saturday but got dropped twice. Once on that drag after the left turn for partridge lane
and second on the way to the cafe with only a mile left. The first time I thought (wished) I'd punctured as my back wheel went soft going over some mud. But the second time it was laziness on my part for digging in a bit deeper when a gap appears.

Still fairly proud of myself getting round that far. I know a month ago may have struggled to ride at that pace from the start.

I was comparing notes with Antloony in the cafe about how that pace was alot quicker than the 19s while he was staring at his chocolate cake saying "I don't think I can eat all of this!!". A note to Antloony, keep up the riding if you've only started four months ago after giving up the tabs.

I think I'm good to have 4-5 turns at this tempo and then look at stepping up again to the training group. I will buy a new bike first and that means I'll be on a level playing field to most people and therefore have no excuses whatsoever :oops:

I'm off this weekend (Surrey Rumble) but should be around the following weekend. If there's a few people wanting to do a 20 then I'll definitely be up for it.


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Re: CR 23rd Feb

Postby adrian » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:03 pm

Here's another late, late one.

Really enjoyed myself on Saturday. It was my first CR for a while, and I'd got used to seeing Agreeables in dribs and drabs - had forgotten how good it is to see everyone en masse 8)

Rode down to CSS with Apples and a couple of mates of his who are training for the Marmotte (one of these was later to give our a*ses a right royal kicking on Box Hill :o). Went with the 19s - George had said he was having a 'day off' and I seemed to remember Adam still had some sore bits. Found the pace just about right - we actually got to the dual carriageway with exactly 19.0 mph showing as my average speed. The subsequent through and off bumped that up to 19.8 by the time we got to the caff. Had a couple of hairy nanoseconds when I had to swerve a kerb that just came out of nowhere :wink: :oops: Didn't contest the sprint - like Apples, I was content to lead the fast boys out and then let them have the glory :wink:

After the longest queue-time I've ever known at the caff - I think the chocolate cake was causing a blockage, as it no doubt also did post-ingestion - I'd barely had time to slurp down my tea and inhale some raspberry jam sponge before I heard Alan's call for a Box Hill group. I was getting cold so was happy to go sooner rather than later.

The pace was kept brisk and got steadily brisker, largely thanks to the chap in black who I only know as Jonathan B's mate. He, Apples and Apples' mate went haring up Box Hill from the very bottom, and 'Flyin'' Brian N and I let them go, thinking they'd never keep it up and that we'd reel 'em in eventually. We did keep them in sight, but never troubled them :cry:

The ride back to Coulsdon had the usual elements - dash across Walton Heath, regroup at Kingswood r'about, mentally unstable motorists, astonishment at the size of the houses on on the Kingswood estate, tear-up along Outwood Lane: all good clean fun.

The rest of the group headed on towards the cafe but Brian and I turned off to go up and over Woodcote. I eventually got home with 75 more miles in the bank. Great fun and a great workout. Thanks chaps.

(PS: In response to the nutrition question raised by Steve B, I err on the side of eating too much. Psychologically, if my pockets or bottles are empty, I feel that I'm running on empty and could conk out at any minute :shock:

I'll have as much as I can get down in the time allotted before setting off - porridge, toast, tea, consumed minutes before heading down to CSS. At the CSS I'll have an apple or banana, or make a start on an energy bar if I've got one (I try to avoid them except for really long days in the saddle - they must play havoc with your teeth). During the ride itself I'll swig from an energy drink and/or water and munch some dried fruit or a banana. If I stop at the caff I'll have a bit of cake - that usually does me until I get home, although I might sometimes have another banana or a flapjack on top of Box Hill, say. Everyone's different, of course - I just find keeping myself topped up works best for me.)
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