Do we need more Monty's then?

[Toks]

I'm not trying to stir up trouble but increasingly I read reports of group chaos on the club runs. Common peeps whats going on name and shame

[Antloony]

Well I'll second Andy G's comments about the 19's group we were in yesterday, it was utter chaos at times. People were just launching attacks up the climbs then backing off as soon as they were over the brow, this really upset the group dynamics and rhythm and nearly caused me to rear end (oooeer finbar) someone twice.

When we stopped just before the DC I made my feelings quite clear that this kind of riding doesn't suit people wanting to move up from the 18's to the 19's. In my opinion the group needs to be led by someone who will pull it back into shape and stop this kind of manic behaviour of attacking everytime the road goes upwards. If you want to do this, go join the training group and leave people like me to enjoy a good steady paced run, not spoil my ride and discourage anyone else from joining the group. It doesn't happen in the 18's or any of the other groups so why is it happening in the 19's on a regular basis.

End of rant.

[Phil L]

Yes we do need more people to control the groups more effectively, but we also need a clearly spelt out and well publicised code of conduct for cycling in a group (as a sticky on the forum and the web site) - otherwise the VCs just get perceived and ignored as ranting spoil sports. For me, its the discipline and team work in the groups that make the club run so successful and enjoyable and its not really a place for uncontrollable "individuals". In my view, if you can survive a ride under Montys discipline then you are fit to cycle on the club run - so one Monty is all we need, backed by sufficient VCs to enforce the accepted code of conduct, covering all groups, in particular the 19s and above. If people are not "agreeable" to the code of conduct then may be they should find a club that suits them better.

Whilst on the topic of the 19s, I try to ride in this group during the summer, and the big issue with it is that its the fastest group with a set speed. This means it can have people in it who are not prepared to kill themselves in the training group, but are comfortable riding faster than 19mph, and so will either push the pace up or ride off the front. A reason why it can swell up to such a large size at the last minute is that people will often hang back to see who's riding in it. If the training group regulars are not taking it "easy", then people are comfortable to join the 19s. So may be we need a 20s or even a 21s group for the summer or nominate a VC or two to make this talked about "19s" training group happen. There is definately a lack of VCs who are prepared to regularly ride in the higher speed groups, so the discipline is going to continue to be unpredictable.

[Toks]

I think this needs to be said at the beginning of th ride Anthony. I can proudly say since my ACC group riding education a few years back I can ride with any club or group in an orderly and safe fashion whether its a race or club run. Things do seem a little unsettled recently I think thats the 3rd time a Vice Captain has complained about lack of group cohesion in a month

[Keith]

[quote="Phil L"]we also need a clearly spelt out and well publicised code of conduct for cycling in a group

[Antloony]

Kieth, from this (lifted off the front page of the site) the speeds are an average.

Outward* (groups may leave earlier than listed, so turn up about 9ish).
9am - All arrive
9.10 - 21 mph av - Training grp
9.13 - 20
9.16 - 19
9.19 - 18
9.21 - 17
9.24 - 16
9.27 - 15
9.30 - J4F - 1st Sat. of mth only
With c12 max in each grp

I see it also says 'turn up about 9ish'.....

[Marek]

I have to say that although I have not been witness to any of this, it sounds like the main issue is people testing themselves on the hills. Well, in every group I have ridden with whether that be experienced or inexperienced riders people will take the hills at their own pace. If people are hammering it up the hills and then easing off on the top then surely they are waiting for the others so can re-group. Seems sensible to me and a good way to improve your fitness.

Ant, you were obviously on the person who was hammering it up the hills wheel, so if you were so worried about the pace why didn't you just sit in with the group then you wouldn't have gone up their butt?

Different matter though if the said speed on the tin is not generally being kept to and people are being dropped all over the place with no one waiting, but I have not heard anyone saying that this is happening.

Although the ride to Box Hill yesterday got pretty frisky and people were finding it hard to keep up on the flats, but this ride was not advertised as being any particular speed, it just happened to have a few quite fast riders at the helm pushing up the pace.

In most groups that I ride with you'll tend to find a couple of guys doing a turn for a while on the front, then after a bit a couple of others will come through when the front two either pull away or look like they need a break. I think it is acceptable that some people don't want to or cannot come through at times and this is fine. I also think that a lot of people don't want to do a through and off for the whole ride and actually don't like to be shouted at whilst riding along as what they have to do next.

In fact I think that sometimes we take the group dynamics thing a bit too seriously, I know we have a lot of newbees etc in the slower groups that may need an initial bit of coaching, but it ain't exactly rocket science to pedal in a slightly lower gear, keep your hands near the brakes and concentrate on the wheel in front.

I think people need to chill a bit as ruling with an iron rod is more likely to put off a lot of people than turn them on. Phil does have a good point though about strong guys having a rest and coming into the lower groups and ripping it up a bit. This is not really fair, but again I think it is fine on the hills and should be encouraged, just as long as they keep it real on the flats.

Cheers

Marek.....

[Antloony]

[quote="Marek"]Ant, you were obviously on the person who was hammering it up the hills wheel, so if you were so worried about the pace why didn't you just sit in with the group then you wouldn't have gone up their butt?

[Amy]

I've always thought that we didn't have enough VCs for the faster groups - I did get fast enough to lead a 19 a year or so ago and hope to get back there. But still it would be good for some of the faster people to step forward as VCs - the more the better (I don't think there's a limit) considering the size of the club. And ones that can bring a certain amount of discipline - I have been told on one occasion that he didn't come out to be told what to do by a female as that was what he got in the rest of the week from his wife... It was sort of half in jest.

I have 'improved' the code of conduct that is supposed to be sent out to all newcomers but that is if they email us in the first place and I had hoped that it was going to go on the Forum. I think I might ask for it to be made into an announcement at the top of forum. I'll dig it out at work tomorrow.

The problem with ripping things up especially noticeable on the hills is that the riders spread out across the road and become a hazard to themselves and others - not to mention risking bringing the club into disrepute. I think that considering the attitude to cycling we should adhere to the Highway Code but ensure that we stand up for our right of way when necessary. I like to think it' something I practise in my own riding. Even breaking up into smaller groups there's too many for us to flaunt the rules of the road.

Please don't rip me up for this - if there's one thing I can't stand is people bringing cycling at any level into disrepute

[Marek]

[quote="Antloony"]
I wasn't hammering it at all, I was sat in the group, those that upped the pace at the front just slowed down to a ridiculous pace once over the top of the hill that it caused the whole group to bunch up and concertina. There were riders all over the road.

Maybe Im being over critical and worrying about it to much, perhaps I'll just spend every sat in the 16's, surely I cant go wrong or moan about anything then.

[Michelle]

As far as I see it, you can't become too rigid about average speed, etiquette, group riding style, the accepted way of riding up a hill or riding down it....because you just can't. CR's would become just too formalised.

If you get too hung up on average speed you are going to end up having an 18.25 mph group, 18.50 mph group, 18.75 etc etc. Average speed is just that, a bit slower on the hills, a bit faster on the descents, definitely a bit faster with an easterly on your backside.

Although generally of the same level of fitness, there are always going to be people in a group who are less fit or re-joining the group after a while off, and they are going to struggle more up the hills.

However we are always saying that people should move up when it's time in order to become faster cyclists. So this should be encouraged.

At the same time you will always get those who are faster dropping into a slower group, cos they don't like the look of the training group or because they are racing the next day, or on an easy week.

You can't stop them, because people have their own agendas, and one shouldn't have to justify moving down a group.

We are lucky that we have so many riders leading to a number of mph groups so that people can do this.

Etiquette is pretty much about knowing the highway code, knowing how to drive and knowing how to ride. Generally it's not too hard to pick up after a few sessions on the club run.

And as to riding up hills, well love em or hate em they are always going to split a group up. The best thing if you are faster is to make sure you are in the outside lane and wait for the stragglers at the other end. Having said that, it is very annoying to have to slow down just at the brow, and not good for the fitness, you just need to power on through...

I had a really good, if tough ride, in the 19s on Saturday, having been off the bike for 9 weeks, and just returned to it 3 weeks ago (thanks for waiting for me guys!) I wasn't on pace on the last couple of hills and slipped behind on the last section of thru and off. So I got dropped about 4 mins from the end.

But that is how it should be - I am over extending myself in order to get better. I shouldn't expect to be able to keep up in the first couple of weeks. And anyway, as everyone knows, I am only passing through the 19's on my way up to the training group

If people are mucking around on the hills, then tell them, if they are ripping your legs off at the front then tell them! If people are being daft on the road then tell them. But don't start laying down too many rules and regulations or the Club Run will become much less enjoyable and we will start losing members.

[Will]

Someone should borrow a derny from Herne Hill and ride in front of the pack

[Amy]

I think it's a case of knowing when to let things loosen up a bit and when to ensure that the group is all together - the group goes much better when everyone keeps in pairs (singling out where necessary) and keeps a decent rotation going. To be honest the club run is more a social event for most rather than a training session. It's good though for the slower ones (like me) to know they're improving by moving up the groups - and anyone should remember that if they can't quite keep up there's always the group behind

With the increase in numbers we need to diversify the club run - I may change my extra miles runs to go to different cafes for 11s. Come on, come up with some new destinations and rides to help diffuse the impact of so many riders on the road.

And I've said this before and I'll probably say it again - everyone is responsible for the good behaviour of the club run

Oh and if we could leave promptly at the times Antloony found we wouldn't clog up CSS so much and the VCs might even have time to remind people of the ACC code of conduct expected.

[Paul H]

I think the fastest Group that leaves CSS irrespective of the label it is given should be aloud to go as fast as they want and anybody who joins it should accept this and be grateful there are riders in the club that can make them suffer. The best thing for a large group is to split by natural selection anyway.

All the strongest riders in the club have been beaten up and dropped on club runs and have used the experience to get faster. Nothing would please me more if a bunch of elites and 1st cats joined the club to rip my legs off.

I think it is really negative to discourage people from going fast. Does it really matter if riders get dropped when there are 5 groups behind them they can tag onto?

My main concern about ACC group riding is safety and have noticed that the slower the group the more dangerous it seems to be and is reflected in the number of accidents that happen even if you include Stu.

Of the subject of more Montys, Simon H told me in the cafe that Monty said he was not welcome on our club runs as he is no longer a member. Is there a club policy on this? I can understand if he was a regular but I havnt seen him come out with us for months. A rider from up North came out with us recently - should I tell him to bugger off next time?

[Rob C]

With all these differences in opinion I wonder what will happen on Saturday morning?

Will it be;

a) a strictly regimented cohesive group ride for all paced groups with each each rider doing equal turns on the front, having a sprinkle of pleasant conversation before making a dash to get to the cake queue
or
b) a free for all, with riders three abreast on narrow country lanes while the big bad angry car driver waits impatiently for 10 minutes to overtake safely (or perhaps not)

Cilla, it's over to you...

Perhaps there's a happy medium?