Do we need more Monty's then?

[Marek]

[quote="Paul H"]Of the subject of more Montys, Simon H told me in the cafe that Monty said he was not welcome on our club runs as he is no longer a member. Is there a club policy on this? I can understand if he was a regular but I havnt seen him come out with us for months. A rider from up North came out with us recently - should I tell him to bugger off next time?

[Snoop Doug]

[quote="Paul H"]Of the subject of more Montys, Simon H told me in the cafe that Monty said he was not welcome on our club runs as he is no longer a member. Is there a club policy on this? I can understand if he was a regular but I havnt seen him come out with us for months. A rider from up North came out with us recently - should I tell him to bugger off next time?

[Snoop Doug]

[quote="Marek"]The thing with a cycling club is that you can't really tell anyone to bugger off because we use public roads for our activity. If SImon H wants to ride along on the back of an ACC organised ride how are you going to stop him, I don't think you can and I don't think you have any right to.

This obviously has implications on things like membership and fees etc as we could all just come along and not subscribe.

Simon H is a member of another club, but happens to live close to the ACC club run, so joins in on that at times. I quite often go along to EGCC club runs and take along a few mates from ACC. We are welcomed with open arms.

Maybe there are other underlying issues that we are unaware but it seems a bit strange from a club that sells itself as agreeable. Maybe this is growing pains.

Marek....

[Tony]

There’s at least two issues in the thread above – 1. How should we ride in a group? and 2. Are non-members welcome on the club run?

On the second issue, some of the comments suggest a lack of appreciation for ‘cycling-culture’ - especially the culture among more serious road-racers. Let me try to explain….

More serious road-racers often have closer friendships / affinity with fellow local racers than whatever club they ride for, especially for big clubs like ACC where only the minority race. If everyone strictly ringfenced all their activities to paid-up members of their own clubs / team, we’d all be the worse off for it pretty quickly. For example, would I ever have gone on any of Festival Road Club training weekends? After all, I was never a paid-up member of their club. Should the trips to take the juniors / espoires such as Stu to Belgium continue? Stu’s not a member of the organiser’s club, after all. Should I have helped out on the final stage of the SL August 3-day last year to man the neutral service vehicle? I was nothing to do with the organising club, so surely it wasn’t my problem? Should anyone ever give lifts to non club members to events – afterall they are not allowed to ride with them on Saturday morning? etc. etc.

Personally, I think the club should be flattered if experienced riders feel they want to come out on the ACC ride. Provided they are paid-up somewhere, then I don’t see an issue. Guys like Simon H are plenty safe and experienced enough to help raise the standard of riding.

Of course, freeloaders who are not members of any club and not contributing to local cycling community need to be spoken with. I don't think Simon H falls in to that category.

[PeteS]

I have been a member of a cycling club since I was around 15, a long time! I always felt a part of any club that I joined and this feeling of belonging was mainly engendered by the attitudes of the existing members. I realise that ACC is a large club with a huge range of membership types but I think it fails to appreciate that many of the guys who ride on a Saturday morning just ride because they don't want to ride alone rather than feeling hugely attached to the Addiscombe. I think probably that the success in terms of numbers is also the reason for the failure of the various groups/cliques to integrate. In a much smaller club, there aren't enough riders to split into ability groups and, therefore, all riders ride together thereby producing a far greater mix of people. The 'stars' have to talk to the 'scrubbers' and in doing so barriers between the elite and the also rans are broken down. This also has the effect of raising the standard of riding in a group. Experienced riders lead by example rather than the lower groups working it out for themselves and etiquette can be passed on in a less abrasive way than shouting at and humiliating miscreants at the side of the road!
I wonder if it's time to think about the definition of success. Maybe size isn't so important, perhaps the sharing of the love of cycling with like minded people is a greater measure of success. The club run in any club is supposed to be a chance for everyone to socialise and enjoy cycling with their friends. Sadly, I feel that Saturday mornings sometimes succeed in this but this thread proves that quite often they don't.

[Colin.Steadman]

what PeteS said.
Success isn't about numbers.

On another point about Monty and Simon H, I remember a few years ago Monty tried to stop a rider riding with the club run. He was a racer from another club and ,if memory serves, did something wrong on a previous club run.Not sure of the details. They had a big slanging match in the carpark of CSS . I seem to remember Monty standing in front of the guys bike trying to stop him riding off with a group and thus joining the ACC club run.It all got a bit ugly and was quite frankly embarrassing. Anyway, the guy in question eventually rode off and joined up with the fast group.
I mention this because there is no way to enforce anyone to pay a membership subscription to ride on the open roads. As a few others have said, we should be glad that people want to ride the club.

[kieran]

Well, my two pennies worth on this, I generally agree with Tony about letting other experienced cyclists from other clubs ride with us (The agreeables?), after all it is to our benefit as well, some of the ACC join the Brixton cycles group on a Sunday from Crystal Palace, do track training given by VCL etc. Also whilst non road-racers/ MTBers /cyclo-cross/ TTers may rarely/never interact with other clubs anyone who takes part in an organised race/event does and it wouldn’t do us much good to get a bad name for the club by being so exclusive.

With regards to cycling discipline on the club run, I can hardly speak as I rarely make it in time for the club run. When I do the quality varies a lot, some of the slowest groups are fine, as are the fastest. Generally I have found it is the in-between groups that get unwieldy by being too large and of mixed ability/ambitions/aims as has been pointed out already. I have twice been volunteered to lead a group of 19s and must admit I think a class of primary school children would have been easier to keep in control, so my sympathies to the VCs. Sprinting up hills is fine but often results in 4 to5 abreast – maybe the VCs should announce in advance of hills and ask any would be hill climbers to move to the front rather than over taking and that regrouping will take place later on the down hill section?

I also think that maybe the club needs to structure its rides differently for Autumn/Winter and Spring/Summer when people might be taking it easy/getting in the miles to when people might be doing high intensity training/racing. As has been talked about a training ‘b’ group is what is needed really and also a max (guideline) size on groups before it is split into sub groups, if 18s has 30 riders maybe 2 groups would work better?

[Grahame]

Colin,

The "gentleman" that you remember Monty having a discussion with at CSS has caused problems on the club run several times, to the point that the committe (the club's "executive body", elected by the membership at the AGM each year) felt it was necessary to write to him informing him that he was not welcome on the clubrun, or other ACC events. He has (at least) twice decided to ignore this advice. We do not want him on our club run. He has a record of dangerous and abusive riding - including physically pushing riders aside during a through and off.

We do welcome guests to ride with us. If they are from outside the area, they are (usually) welcomed with open arms whenever they are in the area. People who are local to us (London, Surrey, Sussex) are welcomed to "guest" on a few occasions, but are then encouraged to make a decision as to whether they want to join and contribute to the club, or find another club to ride with. The problem occurs when people attempt to abuse the guest system. As some people has said, Simon H is local. Yes, he belongs to another club. That's fine. If he wants to ride with us occassionally, great. He should behave like we ask other guests to behave - come to CSS, introduce yourself to Monty and "ask" if it's OK to join in. If guesting becomes a habit, you will be asked if you wish to join. For those who have allegiances to another club, there is a solution - the 2nd claim system. Was Simon The chap "enjoying a full and frank exchange of views" with Monty in the Cafe on Saturday? Was he wearing ACC kit? This does change the picture a little.

Anyway, back to the original topic:

The aim of the rides with a published speed (15, 16, 17, 18, 19mph, etc) is to arrive at the cafe with an indicated average speed within 1/2 mph of the stated one (ie "Does what it says on the tin") whilst riding smoothly and safely in a group. The role of the VC is to look after the group and make decisions about pacing, etc. Sometimes, a group will exceed its advertised speed, sometimes it will be slower. As a VC, I try to keep close to the advertised average. You will not find me posting things like "A good ride today, my 17mph group arrived at the cafe with an indicated average of 23.7mph having dropped the slower riders on the way up the 3 humps" ). On occassion, my group has exceeded its average pace target significantly - there was one week when we got to the cafe at an average of 19.5mph, and I was a bit embarrassed about this until every rider in the group said "well done, that was great. Smooth and fast and we didn't drop anybody". In other words, my group will (usually) only exceed its "on the tin" speed if the group is capable of it without dropping people.

On Satuday, I'm a little embarrassed to say that my group was not so well disciplined, the rotation was not helped by an experienced rider (no names) refusing to rotate in the pattern, just coming to the front when he felt like it, then raising the pace so some people got dropped. I knew that those dropped knew their way, so let it go . Anyway, here's my 2p worth. Advertised speed rides should be controlled efforts to get to the cafe in a safe, smooth controlled group. If people don't like this and wish to "Stretch their legs" on the hills or wherever, then there is the "Training Group". If this is too fast, you may like to consider volunteering to take over the "B training group" pioneered by Andrew Green a few weeks ago. Doing this will make you very popular, I'm sure.

[mrP(Boonen)VT]

Sorry to jump in, but just make a minor correction as a point of order

[quote]Should the trips to take the juniors / espoires such as Stu to Belgium continue? Stu’s not a member of the organiser’s club, after all.

[Amy]

As promised, my version of the ACC code of conduct:

"All newcomers should introduce themselves to the Captain or, in his absence a Vice-Captain, at Coulsdon South Station.
Newcomers, depending on experience, should ride in the slower groups to begin with – 17mph or below, especially if new to riding in a group.
When riding in a group, please be responsible, not only for yourself but others in the group and the group as a whole.
Groups ride in two lines with riders taking turns on the front in rotation.
Remember that when on the front you have as much responsibility as any other rider to keep the group together and within the specified speed average.
Ensure signals and communications are relayed throughout the group: point out potholes and other hazards to riders behind, let people know if you are slowing down (“easy”) or “stopping”, advise if vehicles are coming up or down the group when necessary and whether the riders on the front need to speed up, slow down or rotate.
Do not ride more than two abreast and keep the group as compact as possible by following the wheel in front and do not allow gaps to form. No half wheeling.
And don’t forget, obey the Highway Code!
And if you need further clarification on these and other queries or concerns – ask the Captain or Vice-Captains."

Any thoughts - in light of Kieran's comment on the charge up hills resulting in 4 or 5 abreast (I agree). I could add something on that?

And if you like it, how about sticking this at the top of the forum?

[Phil L]

True its a public road we are using, but riding in a group is a team effort, requires discipline to maximise its enjoyment and safety, and tagging on the end without a turn towing the group is free loading in my mind and deserves some short sharp remarks. Would you let someone join your football kick around game on a public recreation ground? If he asks nicely you might and if he plays to the rules and contributes to the team effort you might ask him back again. But if he kicks your shins in, you tell him where to go.

By wearing our kit we are also advertising who we are, so no behaviour should put the club into disrepute, especially from non-paid up members with no concern about the ethos of the club or any sense of "belonging". When the group turns into a shambles and we end up showing poor consideration to other road users, then by not being on top of this reflects on the club's reputation. Though I would add that some of the problems being discussed on this thread are not necessarily confined to non-paid up members - whoever they may be? We won't know unless the fully paid up members are published.

[kieran]

Amy,

A few other things to maybe add:

Shouts:

"Car up" for vehicle coming from behind
"Car down" for vehicle coming towards us from the front
"Clear" for no traffic coming when turning a corner/ crossing a junction
"Car" for traffic coming when turning a corner / crossing a junction

Also the hand wave you give when signalling to the riders behind to move right or out from the side when the group is passing a parked car/walker/slower cyclist.

You might need to explain 'half wheeling' and that horses need to be given a wide berth when overtaking. Also is rotate anticlockwise/clockwise and is it one rider at a time?

Given all the signals etc I think we need something like the air stewards demonstration of the safety features on a plane, do it prior to the various groups heading off. We could get the VCs to form an pretend group and do the various signals/calls/ show rotation etc!

[Amy]

We are supposed to induct newbies into the use of such signals but with the influx of numbers it's been dropped by the wayside.

I'll incorporate your suggestions - I was originally aiming for it to fairly short and brief - as a supplement on signals in the group.

As for half wheeling - as I said I was trying for short and to the point - so I left an explanation of half wheeling out and put the thing about asking Captain/VCs but again I could do the *thingy and put an explanation at the bottom.

I'll redo my ACC code of conduct (the original was appalling in terms of grammar and layout - rather muddled).

thanks for the input, Kieran

[Amy]

My version now amended:-

"ACC Club run code of conduct

All newcomers should introduce themselves to the Captain or, in his absence a Vice-Captain, at Coulsdon South Station.
Newcomers, depending on experience, should ride in the slower groups to begin with – 17mph or below, especially if new to riding in a group.
When riding in a group, please be responsible, not only for yourself but others in the group and the group as a whole.
Groups ride in two lines with riders taking turns on the front in rotation.
Remember that when on the front you have as much responsibility as any other rider to keep the group together and within the specified speed average.
Ensure signals and communications are relayed throughout the group: point out potholes and other hazards to riders behind, let people know if you are slowing down (“easy”) or “stopping”, advise if vehicles are coming up or down the group when necessary and instructions such as whether the riders on the front need to speed up, slow down or rotate.

Signals and communications:
Signals: Hand up in air indicates slowing down/stopping (otherwise use "easy" and "stopping")
Hand (right or left) swung across back indicates obstacle - whether pedestrian, obstruction etc - ahead on which ever side indicated
Point out potholes by pointing in general direction of them
Glass, gravel or other loose material indicated by waving open hand parallel to road on relevant side
Shouts: "Easy" - slowing down
"Stopping" - does what it says on the tin
"Car up" - vehicle coming from behind
"Car down" - vehicle coming towards group from the front
"Clear" for no traffic coming when turning a corner/crossing a junction (but this is not a substitute for checking for yourself)
"Car left/right" for traffic coming when turning a corner/crossing a junction
"Single out" - go to single file (if vehicle coming from the front, the outside rider should move in and behind the inside rider; if vehicle coming from behind, outside rider should move to the front of the inside rider and in both cases inside rider should ensure they move forward or drop back as required)

Do not ride more than two abreast and keep the group as compact as possible by following the wheel in front and do not allow gaps to form. No half wheeling*!

Horses should be passed with care, especially when coming up behind them. Do not freewheel if you have a clicky freewheel - the noise spooks them - and KEEP TALKING!

And don’t forget, obey the Highway Code!
If you need further clarification on these and other queries or concerns – ask the Captain or Vice-Captains.

*half wheeling - this is when two people ride side by side with one continually edging half a wheel in front of the other resulting in an increase in speed as the half-wheelee keeps trying to catch up and the half-wheeler keeps edging half a wheel in front..."

[-Adam-]

[quote="Amy"]*half wheeling - this is when two people ride side by side with one continually edging half a wheel in front of the other resulting in an increase in speed as the half-wheelee keeps trying to catch up and the half-wheeler keeps edging half a wheel in front..."