Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Toks » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:12 pm

[quote]
"My reaction...the enthusiasm that I had built up about the sport in the last couple of years has been all but completely wiped out in the last couple of hours.

Oh whatever P. Kimmage get over ya self mate!...For every Lance Hater there will be a hundred others getting ready to get excited about their bikes again

Let’s turn the clock back to Armstrong’s last apparition in the sport. The Tour de France 2005. He’s standing on! the podium. And he makes this big impassioned speech. Which is basically saying ‘The last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics, the sceptics: I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles.’ That was 2005, his last ride in the the Tour de France. And the people flanking him on that podium were Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich. And a month after that race ended the French newspaper L’Equipe reported that in his first winning Tour de France, in 1999, Armstrong had tested positive for EPO. Six separate samples taken during that race revealed positive tests for EPO.


Blah Blah whatever!!!its boring mate. Yeah we know like Merckx, Simpson, and some of the other cycling heavy weights Armstrong possibly dabbled in the naughty stuff. But what about the years 2000-2005? And if L'equipe knew why did they keep it quiet? If my brother has killed someone ain't I partly guilty too if I don't tell the police :roll: :roll: :roll:

Its boring :roll: if you really wanna be a big name and sell more copies of your excellent book "Rough Ride" why not let us REALLY know about your proycling in your era shed light on the many cycling pundits that are around today.Now that would be really brave journalism. Trying to constantly attack the greatist pro-racer of the modern era is almost cowardly just cause he's an arrogant big shot that not a lot of 'real' cycling fans like. Except me of course, but then I only racked up in the 2003/2004 season :D :D I can' help it I watched my mate girlfriend die of cancer then bought this book called "its not about the bike" a few months later.


This return, he wants us to believe that it’s all about saving the world from cancer. That’s complete bullshit. It’s about revenge It’s about ego. It’s about Lance Armstrong. I think he’s trying to rewrite his exit from the sport. He’s sat back and he’s watched the last two years and he cannot stand the idea that there are clean cyclists now that will overtake his legacy and buy the memory of all the crap that he put the sport through.

Doh!!! of course its about ego he's the most competitive son of bitch on the planet. If he thinks he can do it why not let him have a go. Have you considered the risk he's taking reputation, more chance for peeps to spit and chuck accusations at him. He's a millionaire for God sake, How many of us would have the balls? etc etc its massive risk. Almost Hollwoodesque but bring it on I say :D :D

When I heard it being mooted first that he was coming back, I thought well that’s fine, because the first thing ASO are going to say is ‘sorry Lance, we’ve seen your results from the 1999 tests , you’re not coming back.’ I expected a similar statement from Pat McQuaid. What’s happened instead is that Christian Prudhomme has said ‘yes, you can come back, no problem.’ And Pat McQiad has said ‘I really admire this man, he’s a tremendous ambassador for cycling.’ What we’re getting here is the corporate dollars and the money that’s going to accompany this guy back into the game. The money that’s going to bring for Nike, one of the big sponsors of the Tour. And for the UCI, who have been experiencing some serious problems in the last couple of years.

Er... where ya been dude? its always been about the money. shhitt even my son knows that and he's just become a teenager. Yikes

Much as you want to say the sport has changed, as quickly as they can change their own opinions – McQuaid, who says one thing in private and quite the opposite in public, and Prudhomme – if they can change so quickly then I’m sorry, it’s really very, very difficult to have any optimism with regard to Armstrong and the way the sport was moving forward. For me, if he comes back next year, the sport takes two steps back. Don't agree. He wants to prove himself in an era where drug taking is so frowned on you'd become so despised. Why would he take the risk if he weren't gonna bother riding clean??

I spent the whole Tour this year with Slipstream, the Garmin team. That wasn’t by accident. I chose that team deliberately, because of what they were saying about the sport and the message they were putting out. But also the fact that so many of that team had raced with Armstrong during his best years and knew exactly what he got up to. And the stuff that I learnt on that Tour about him and what he was really like was absolutely shocking, really shocking.

What’s going to happen now is he comes back and everybody’s going to wave their hands in the air and give him a big clap. And all the guys who really know what he’s about are going to feel so utterly and totally depressed.

Psyco-therapy can help get over that sort of thing and regressive hypnosis also helps they tell me

Astana’s the absolute perfect team for him. He’d be renewing his old acquaintance with Bruyneel, who wanted to hire Basso last year. Will he be renewing his old acquaintance with Ferrari, the famous doctor? Will Bruyneel be taking pictures of the questioning journalists and pinning them on the side of his bus?

When Armstrong talks about transparency, this is the greatest laugh. When he talks about embracing this new transparency … I’m really looking forward to that. I’m really looking forward to my first interview request with him and seeing how that comes back. Because that would really make it interesting.

This guy, any other way but his bullying and intimidation wrapped up in this great cloak, the great cancer martyr … this is what he hides behind all the time. The great man who conquered cancer. Well he is the cancer in this sport. And for two years this sport has been in remission. And now the cancer’s back[

b]." Deep down I think you're just as excited as the rest of us. This could be your chance - You must be praying and hoping for him to mess up. I'd still have more respect for you if you went back and wrote about the cycling gods from your era. mmm too risky me thinks. Lance is so much easier and plus when they're not from where your from and don't sound like you its so much easier to hate em....he he just having fun everyone. I'm fine really :wink: :wink: :twisted: [/b]

copied from:
http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/[/quote]
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Jon H » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:50 pm

[quote="Andrew G"]- A fiver says he doesn't start the TdF in 2009. Most likely will be on the startlist until the last minute (for a replacement to be named) to drag as much publicity as possible out of it.

- A fiver says he doesn't use dog-sitting as an excuse for a DNS :wink:
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Snoop Doug » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:43 pm

[quote="Jon Hemming"][quote="Andrew G"]- A fiver says he doesn't start the TdF in 2009. Most likely will be on the startlist until the last minute (for a replacement to be named) to drag as much publicity as possible out of it.

- A fiver says he doesn't use dog-sitting as an excuse for a DNS :wink:


Touché of the week....no, make that YEAR! Straight out of the top drawer Mr H
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Toks » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:43 pm

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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Dombo » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:53 am

This thread will run and run.
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Toks » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:04 am

[quote="marco"]Veloriders needs a login unfortunately
can you summarise their opinions on there?
Are they concerned about the epo in his 99 tour blood samples?
About his intimidation of an anti doping witness?
About the dumping of unapproved for human use epo syringes by his team?
About his physiology study quoted in the SCA case being badly flawed?
About his teammates testimonies on how drugs were used and encouraged?
About the allegations of drug use by his PA and soigneur?
About why he would have the worlds most prominent blood doctor on his payroll?
Or are they quoting the press releases and spun out biographies as if they told the whole story!?!?!?

:wink:
Thats a shame really I'll try and paste some of the different views if I've got time later
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Toks » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:39 pm

[quote]While this is to some extent true, it is fair to point out that Kimmage is a brilliant writer on any number of sports quite apart from cycling and might well be an award winner on those alone.

It can be argued that he is obsessed with doping in cycling, but most certainly national newspapers in both Britain and Ireland, and perhaps other countries, are not giving him whole pages or even several pages for his feature articles on the strength of his views on cycling. He is a thought provoking writer on far bigger sports and his articles are beautifully crafted.

So I consider he is passionate in what he writes about cycling and not merely trying to make a name for himself. Stick with objecting to what he says, if that is your view, rather than accusing him of cynical exploitation.

While I have no evidence one way or another, I regret the return of Armstrong as I had hoped the sport had turned over a page which was just a little cleaner than the previous ones. The quicker that whole generation drops out the better it is. So come-backs are to be regretted.

Ruthless, yes. But necessary, yes.

[quote]I both think Kimmage is a bitter sod, and an interesting and thought provoking writer.

I personally feel little of what he says is make believe, and understand if he has certain frustrations that the shenanigans going on are not being publiciised or more accurately being acted on by those inside and outside the sport.

I do however disagree with teh Armstrong view point. I am looking forward to having him back. I reckon one of two things will happen... he will either rewrite his exit as he wishes, (which can only be good for the sport as it will hopefully bring some closure on the Armstrong years) or as I suspect, he will never reach the tour due to a genuine or contrived doping infraction.
[quote]I’ve been a huge critic of Kimmage in the past for the one-sided way he has portrayed cycling. However, he partly redressed the balance with his writing on this year’s Tour with more balanced pieces on the Garmin team.
For once I agree with him. Armstrong coming back sends the sport backwards to reporting on issues that have been far more positive. I also agree with him that it’s not about cancer, more about the salving of a massive ego. I’ve been on other sites and the cancer is a side-issue. Instead, it’s all about the dr-ugs thing again.
He should have retired, counted his money and done his work on cancer, not this publicity stunt that damages cycling when it appeared to be coming out of the mire. Then we have the Bruyneel scenario when it’s patently obvious that Contador will get done over if he stays with Astana. Armstrong’s hegemony of everyone around him is all pervasive, so Alberto should do a runner as fast as he can.
For me it’s a bad day for the sport, but once again money (sponsors) talk. Matt Dickinson in the Times on Thursday also put it into perspective in a less strident way than Kimmage, but the message was the same. Whether Lance was clean or not, the perception from most is that he wasn’t!!!
[quote]
Actually I used to work for Panorama. I know exactly what the balancing act having spent many an hour sitting with the lawyers trying to get copy agreed and signed off. I know McNae's inside out having spent two years doing celebrity news and making the front page of the nationals on at least one occasion when I got it wrong (and is why I have a burning hatred of Richard Desmond and Associated).

I say shoddy because I don't see the same attention to detail that I see in the work of people like John Ware or Peter Taylor. They can do it yes, but Kimmage loses his clarity with cycling because of his personal attachment to the sport. I love his ability to get up the noses and under the skin of people

The general thrust of Walsh's work is fascinating but I find it frustrating that the latter can on one hand condemn the code of Omerta among riders yet at the same his work relies on it to a degree for its impact. I know how essential it is to protect sources but it feels sometimes as if Walsh doesn't want his sources to be opened up to scrutiny other than his own. When you're making such a big deal of having the truth, it sort of feels like it should be a little more nailed on. It feels like there's a chapter still missing which really ought to have been written by now.

I don't get how Armstrong's return drags cycling into the doping mire, unless we're convinced he will get caught or someone will put down the concrete evidence that he did. Or that doping is still pretty endemic in the sport and that we're about to go through one of those periods where testing catches up with the commonest products in use.
[quote]He's right though, and you've acknowledged as much above. What's wrong with someone saying it? All the successful riders of the last decade have been busted for doping, and Armstrong still running around with Bono and Clinton making out that he's some miracle. It's disgusting. There's plenty of media outlets that are happy to print whatever hyperbole Armstrong's PR team come out with and plenty of people that swallow up every word. Whether Kimmage is a good writer or not, at least he's willing to write a version of the truth about Armstrong.[code][quote]i think Kimmage is extremely naive to believe and purport that the absence of Armstrong immediately inspired a new clean era of pro cycling

'the sport was in remission from a cancer and the cancer has come back..'
pull the other one Kimmage!

i am a fan of kimmage's journalism - he provokes truth telling, lifts the veil of secrecy about a number of issues. but he's going a bit over the top with this stuff about armstrong bringing back the bad old days. and i don't understand why he's anti-david millar given that they're both wanting exactly the same thing for the sport....[quote]Kimmage doped as a rider to earn money in "chaudieres" and now earns good money making allegations of doping against other riders, sometimes with a degree of circumstantial evidence in support of such allegations but often on the basis of "evidence" that seems very flimsy.

I have never read any of David Walsh's journalism other than LA Confidential which personally I think is a dreadful piece of journalism.

Whatever the "truth" is on Lance, neither of these two have got as close to it as they pretend. Good journalists have taken down far more powerful and litigious figures than Lance.
[quote]Bitter little man! Could`nt hack it on the bike, now like`s to massage his ego by getting his name spread all over the press as some fighter of evil and righter of wrongs!

At the end of the day Armstrong has never tested positive. End of![quote]What's his problem with Armstrong? What about Roche's spectacular performance in 87 and Kelly's dominance of the 80's. [quote]He is a columnist, paid to be opinionated. Which he is, and the bitterness of the past comes through. I have no time for the crocodile tears, and confessions in his book about taking stuff. I wish he could have a good think about aspects of ANY sport which do not involve his own level of prejudice. By his reckoning I am probably a cheating d o p e r because I once took a hay fever *CENSORED* to keep running eyes at bay, combined with an amphetamine to counter the side effects of the first *CENSORED*! Didn't do any good in the race either...
The problem is, for the Walshes and Kimmages of this world, positive opinion does not sell their articles, where accusations combined with evidence are thin on the ground, although what they say may be based in some fact. Though at least Kimmage has been a bike rider and should know a bit.
It's just the rancour, bitterness, and accusations flung about (mud sticks) which annoy me. And if they are PROVED wrong, apology on page 94 in 4 point type, right?
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Alex P » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:12 am

Spot on:

"It's just the rancour, bitterness, and accusations flung about (mud sticks) which annoy me. And if they are PROVED wrong, apology on page 94 in 4 point type, right?"

Let me write the headlines re LA this summer to save everybody the trouble:

[color=#0000BF]If he wins the tour "No one could have done it for the eigth time at his age - he must be on drugs" and then the merry go around starts

If he does not win "see I told you he could not do it without drugs" and then the merry go around starts

If he does not partake for whatever reason "Obviously too scared that he might get caught out with the new detecting techniques" and then the merry go around starts [/color]

I know a person who has had his and his family's lives ruined due to false accusations by an "investigative jourmalist" so perhaps I'm opinionated. Some people think that it is a bit of fun but this is peoples lives and there is not a person here reading this would like to be on the wrong end of it.
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Dombo » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:09 am

If the French are offering to retest LA's 1999 wee samples now they have more stringent and accurate test procedures, perhaps I can persuade Oxford & Cambridege Exam Board to remark my 1981 A Levels now they have less stringent and dumbed-down marking procedures?
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Grahame » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:52 am

[quote="Dombo"]If the French are offering to retest LA's 1999 wee samples now they have more stringent and accurate test procedures, perhaps I can persuade Oxford & Cambridege Exam Board to remark my 1981 A Levels now they have less stringent and dumbed-down marking procedures?


So you are arguing that we should not use improved DNA testing to convict rapists and murderers who committed their crimes 9 or 10 years ago :shock: ? Is that what you are implying? 'Cos that's what it looks like(it's the same argument, but a bit more extreme, I'll agree). Applying new tests to old samples is good detective work. Why should it not be used in sport to retrospectively catch people who cheated other ("clean") competitors out of prize money? Or, it could prove Armstrong innocent, in which case I'll change my view of the man and accept that he is/was a peddling miracle.
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Andrew G » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:44 am

[img]http://www.contractappliances.com/_borders/ariston_logo.gif[/img]
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Daniel Gee » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:05 am

I wouldn't normally get involved in this sort of row but i thought this was interesting

[quote]Armstrong said "There is simply nothing I can agree to that would provide any relevant evidence about 1999"


He doesn't actaully say there's nothing he possesses that would provide any relevant evidence.

Dr Ferrari's medical records from 98/99 would settle the matter either way for once & for all.

personally I wish he'd never decided to return, he's like a dinosaur thats missed the asteroid strike.
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Dombo » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:16 am

[quote="Grahame"][quote="Dombo"]If the French are offering to retest LA's 1999 wee samples now they have more stringent and accurate test procedures, perhaps I can persuade Oxford & Cambridege Exam Board to remark my 1981 A Levels now they have less stringent and dumbed-down marking procedures?


So you are arguing that we should not use improved DNA testing to convict rapists and murderers who committed their crimes 9 or 10 years ago :shock: ? Is that what you are implying? 'Cos that's what it looks like(it's the same argument, but a bit more extreme, I'll agree). Applying new tests to old samples is good detective work. Why should it not be used in sport to retrospectively catch people who cheated other ("clean") competitors out of prize money? Or, it could prove Armstrong innocent, in which case I'll change my view of the man and accept that he is/was a peddling miracle.


A clumsy misinterpretation of my argument, Grahame, but then whenever LA is mentioned in this forum that is to be expected. My point is simply that everything should be retested when we have new tools until we get the result we want. That includes wee samples, banging up crims, and 30-year old A levels.
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of the...

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:03 pm

If he does comeback hopefully we can have another podium speech
"But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it".

Don't disagree with the "hard work" just a bit missing regarding, what's needed for performance recovery.

So I thought I'd put down a list, I know it's not complete, who have either admitted / been caught / banned etc

Johan Museeuw
Gilberto Simoni
Macro Pantani
Claudio Chiappuci
Evgeni Berzin
Alexandre Vinokourov
Ivan Basso
Raimondas Rumsas
Richard Virenque
Floyd Landis
Djamolidin Abdoujaparov
Laurent Brochard
Tyler Hamilton
Roberto Heras
Riccardo Ricco
Jan Ullrich
Bjaine Riis
Erik Zabel
David Millar
Frankie Andreu
Christophe Moreau
Jorg Jaksche
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Re: Times Journalist Paul Kimmage's take on the return of th

Postby Ben » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:47 pm

They seemed like a good thread to post his comments about the UCI. Copied from Link. Given the many supporters of PK.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/kim ... ch-surgery

Omerta
One of the key problems Kimmage identified in Rough Ride was the culture of silence, the omerta that surrounded cycling’s doping problem. Twenty-two years on, it seems that little has changed. At the time of writing, the highest-ranked to openly applaud USADA’s work has been Gustav Erik Larsson of Vacansoleil-DCM. The Swede lies 156th in the WorldTour standings.
“Obviously, you’ve got cranks like me ranting and railing over the past couple of days but in terms of the riders who are leaders of the sport – the Bradley Wiggins, the Froomes, the Contadors – has there been one strong, coherent statement about this?” Kimmage asks. “Has there been one positive statement where somebody actually applauds an anti-doping agency for doing its work, for exposing a cheat? Has there been any statement from any of these guys about this? Not one.
“What does that tell you? What it tells me is that omerta, the problem that existed in my time when I left the sport in 1989 is still there. For me, it’s not reflective of the fact that these guys are all cheating, even if you could be forgiven for assuming that. My own belief is that the real problem is the fear of speaking out. When there are repercussions for speaking out against doping, it means that nothing has changed. Nothing has changed. For me that’s the real problem there.”
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