I think that we should just stick to the facts and remember that this is an ACC forum and not your forum.
There are for sure big problems with drugs in cycling as there seems to be in any other sport (tiddlywicks might get away with it) especially where there is a lot of money involved but throwing around suppositions does not change the status quo, it only further entrenches the situation and polarizes views.
AD : Que CERA CERA, whatever will be, will be
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Re: AD : Que CERA CERA, whatever will be, will be
by Alex P » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:44 pm
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Re: AD : Que CERA CERA, whatever will be, will be
by Andrew G » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:46 pm
[quote="Brian Robinson"]A question about autologous transfusions:
I understand that if it is your own blood that you can't test for it, but what about fluctuations between haemocrit/haemoglobin levels on a daily basis. How much can your natural levels move in any one day and what are the causes? Should going from 42% one day to 49% the next day in the middle of a Grand Tour not look a tad suspicious? If you transfuse in the morning and hit the start line with 60% would it be below 50% by the end of the day?
Clearly if your natural levels fluctuate significantly on a daily basis then it would be difficult to measure
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Bri
I understand that if it is your own blood that you can't test for it, but what about fluctuations between haemocrit/haemoglobin levels on a daily basis. How much can your natural levels move in any one day and what are the causes? Should going from 42% one day to 49% the next day in the middle of a Grand Tour not look a tad suspicious? If you transfuse in the morning and hit the start line with 60% would it be below 50% by the end of the day?
Clearly if your natural levels fluctuate significantly on a daily basis then it would be difficult to measure
. Bri
As a rule your red cell count will drop over a grand tour but will then recover after once you're are on recovery but I don't know by how much. it is a slow drift though and your cell count doesn't jump around by that much over a short period of time. Altitude training will increase your red cell count, which is often why people do it, but doing a few mountain stages does not counteract the general drop that would occur in the race.
The 50% health check is to avoid the counts getting too high and suggesting that you may be blood doping (or EPO which also boost the red cell count). A rider needs a certificate to prove they have a naturally high count which may read over 50%, which is entirely possible particularly if you are say a Colombian who lives at altitude (why they make good climbers). The 50% rule isn't foolproof as if you have a 40% count and I have a 45% count we could both blood dope up to 49% and stay in the limit but you would get a greater benefit.
If as you say you tested daily and it went from 42% to 49% the next day then it would raise doubts, and although you stayed below 50% and the rest of the test was clear of any drugs, you would be a marked man and they would pay close attention to you - as they did with Vino et al.
Riders medical documents that they have to have with them hold their haemocrit level so that any tests can be compared to what that says is their natural level, and also holds details of any exemption certificates they have for asthma drugs etc. I think the passport system they've been introducing just takes this a step further to hold more information.
Having mentioned asthma and the drugs thing that crops up about taking the medication for performance benefits, like Petacchi who failed a test and got banned, the last time I went to the doctors we were chatting about cycling. He is a trained sports doctor and has worked as a physio for sports teams and was involved in tests that were carried out looking at various performance enhancing drugs. He said their results actually showed that you would be mad to use the asthma drug method to cheat as the performance benefit it gives you is tiny and so negligible that the risk of getting caught would far out way the benefit, even for the most keen to dope athlete.
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Re: AD : Que CERA CERA, whatever will be, will be
by Dombo » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:06 pm
[quote="Andrew G"]... you would be mad to use the asthma drug method to cheat as the performance benefit it gives you is tiny and so negligible that the risk of getting caught would far out way the benefit, even for the most keen to dope athlete.
What about some adrenaline straight into the heart like that bird in Pulp Fiction? or a couple of Epipens jabbed in your thighs at the base of Tourmalet or AdH? Or for those of us suffering in the credit crunch, and on a tight budget, perhaps a Ralgex suppository clenched between the cheeks at the base of Box Hill? Just curious.
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Re: AD : Que CERA CERA, whatever will be, will be
by Ben » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:23 pm
LA podium speech
"But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it".
Not read any of his books, did LA , ever express any views, on reducing the distance/number of events riders are expected to participate, increasing the number of rest days, calling for longer contracts etc
"But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it".
Not read any of his books, did LA , ever express any views, on reducing the distance/number of events riders are expected to participate, increasing the number of rest days, calling for longer contracts etc
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Re: AD : Que CERA CERA, whatever will be, will be
by Andrew G » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:42 pm
[quote="Dombo"][quote="Andrew G"]... you would be mad to use the asthma drug method to cheat as the performance benefit it gives you is tiny and so negligible that the risk of getting caught would far out way the benefit, even for the most keen to dope athlete.
What about some adrenaline straight into the heart like that bird in Pulp Fiction? or a couple of Epipens jabbed in your thighs at the base of Tourmalet or AdH? Or for those of us suffering in the credit crunch, and on a tight budget, perhaps a Ralgex suppository clenched between the cheeks at the base of Box Hill? Just curious.
I'll leave you to try the sandpaper in the shorts to keep you out the saddle and pounding up the climb method
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