Why do zone training on the club run?????

[Juerg FaCT]

Hmmmm must be some "air pressure change in the UK " as I smell from the ongoing discussion.
I would like to make some points here and hope of some questions I may be able to answer.
1. If I do a FTP test ( which is possibly one of the better on field tests available ) I will have a very close avareage wattage info , as if I do a FaCT under avaerage conditions ( No heat no energy depletion ) and so on.
So the result in wattage will be very close, as both tests will give us some inside view into the physiological ability of the body.
2. When we use now the different info from FaCT zoning ( based on physiological bio markers ) and we use FTP zoning based on % we again , as one example I showed on this Forum explains ) will be very close to the same ideas.
Example A. Coggan expected physiological adapatation for aerobic capacity is in the area of 55 - 75 % of FTP
FaCT idea of improving aerobic power ( STF areas mainly ) is by somewhere LBP - 10 - 40 ) as an individual assessment)
Here is one of the differences. We may find STF zoning , which are somewhat higher than A. Coggan's suggestion for this stimmulus ) and than we have actually never a lower intensity than 55 % so actuially we believ that 55 % is a very low intensity for aerobic capacity training , but it is possible for very long events .
3.
If we now train with power and we like to stay in a "powerzone " let's say the SST sweat spot traiing , than we have the ability to move between about 70 % to 100 % of the FTP . . This intensity is , based on A. Coggan's idea mainly a stimmulus for
- Increased mitochondrial enzyme activity
- increased muscle glyccogen storage
- interconversion of FTF fibres
This is pretty much identical with our ideas , as Coggan's and our ideas are based on much smarter researchers , than we are and based on many different studies and tests.
We don't name it SST but name it LBP training . Here is a again a small differents. We try to stay in the LBP training LBP - intensity. So LBP - 10 or - 20 and than we hope to achieve the same physiological adaptation..
The average SST zone is in the 85 % range based on FTP tests.
This is in many of the LBP tests about LBP - 10 if we compare the wattage.
So not a very big difference.
4. If we now go out and use wattage and stick with wattage we have in any zone of the FTP system the interesting situation , that wattage and HR are very stable.
In FaCT the wattage has a major problem , when riding in a group in hilly roads.
You will, if you stick to wattage slow down immediatly at the start of the climb and can therefor maintain a much more stable HR as a beginner, than when you try with a stable HR. Same again on top of the hill , when it is flat again, as you immediatly can go faster by watching the wattage.
This is the reason , taht we use wattage in big camps with lot's of people in a group.
If you go with HT only the HR lags behind in hills and you need a very good body feeling to achieve a stable HR zone..
There is really no difference, whether you watch HR or wattage. Try it out and you will be surprised.
5.
The problem is for both training ideas the same. (Wattage and HR) If you ride in a group , where certain "ego's " or fun playes take part you can't stick to the wattage nor HR zone.
There are different reasons, but you may have peole they are just simply stronger uphill ( wattage / body weight ratio ) and somewhat weaker in the flat.
So if you have to work hard in teh flat you enjoy the fact , that you can challange your partners in the hills and vice verca. Nothing wrong with this and should and can be done in group rides.
Interesting is , that the strongest cyclists in the group will be the one , who benefits most and the weakest the less, as the weakest does not train in different stimmulus zones, but mainly ibn the "surviving " zone.
Do we workout in LBP - 20 only .
Answer is simply
NO.
What is FaCT it is Feldmann sna Chelbel test or trend.
What do we use it for ?
Assess peole to find individual biomarkers.
What is the difference to a Conconi test or a FTP test and others.
We look for biomarkers , for different physiological system and than use this information to find the "overload " intensity for this specific system.
FTP and other tests surge for a specific performance ( Either max performance or 1 h sustainable perfomance ) and than use this as the 100 % bench line. Than they use % of this 100 % performance and make a zoning system out of that.
Any ( with no exception ) exercise physiological researcher accepts the fact , that this are statistical calculation with no meaning full idea for an individual system , but the statistical info only.
There are many other statistical ideas out there.
One of the most discussed in cycling is possibly the 50 % Hct limitation, where we know , that there are individual differences for even above 50 % as a very individual normal Hct.
Now here one of the surprising points in the above discussion.
1. LBP - 20 or what ever , has the same range as a L3 zone based on FTP. There are no strict numbers but areas in any of the existing zonings. In fact we know by now that there is nothing like a "threshod "
This is not new , and in fact , that's where we have a fundamental difference to the "east german " ideas ( Mader 2 and 4 mmol , and I would like to challenge the answer , from one of the above writers, that FaCT is based on 1970 "east german " ideas. This is one of the better suggestions I got over the last 35 years and I would love to see the parallels the writer could find with any of the Mader ideas .
Boring . I think it is more a question of openness to try othre ideas. . Again an example here.
You ride in a group of Zone 3 FTP intensity. There is really only one guy , who can ride in that zone if you go single file or 2 if you go double file on a good road. The rest in the draft will be on much lower wattage.
Yes you can take turns in the front, which would make an "intervall" workout , as you move form Zone 3 to zone 1 and so on. This can be a very nice way of a workout indeed , if you have this in mind.
Now if youi go uphill we have a better way of having all in the right wattage zone ( perhaps ) , as now we shift from wind resistance to gravity resistance and the wattage body weight ration will be the limitation and may change the zoning by a bit.. The even bigger problem no is the downhill section , as you may have no big choices , but be far below your wattage target.
Now with HR and wattage in combination , you will be able to achieve , if you like a very stable physiological zoning intensity as you can use respiration , RPM and other potential stimmulus ideas to maintain your HR in teh zoneing you choose to go.

Summary :
The above discussion seems to me is very based on personal feelings , rather than actual interesting facts and discussions on what we like to try.
I am even more surprised , that many times "wattage " believers react very "physically " and when we try to ask some questions, we very seldom have a deper answer . One of teh reasons for me seems, that they often not syudies the FTP idea, which is a great way of using power.
And even more is , that they never actually studied the physiological apporach of training.
There is not training program ,as we all will react very individual , and therefor we try to assess and learn or try to leanr the individual reactions to a specific stimmulus.
If we train in all different zones all over tegh place we may see some progress and than we can't realy argue, as progress is a sign of a good rest . workout stimmulus . Problem: We may not know, why we realy made progress, as we have no idea where we actually worked out and how long and how often , if we base it simmply on one single non physiological result ( wattage)
If we make no prgress with teh above approach we are lost.
Now if we use some individual intensities and stay within decent time in thsi zoning we canhave teh following result:
1. No result which is good as well ,as we know now after 6 or 8 weeks, that this specific intensity for the moment does not stimmulate any change.
If we are better great and we know why , becasue we have a specific intensity we followed.
If we are worse ; great as well , as we either - undertrained and certain bio markers will show that
or overtrained and not enough rest as certain bio markers will show that as well.
Now we can sit down and assess and make changes based on the info.
To asses and be able to make this changes we need to be able to see individual biomarkers .
If somebody of teh above writers can show me how I can ready this out of % based on FTP than I am very happy to try to integrate this in our training ideas.

Last but not least .
I see, that somebod asked me something , and I seem not have answered his question.
I am sorry , so please ask the question again, as I may have missed it.
or
I had no answer, but in this case I alwasy tend to answer with the words.
Good question but I really don't have an answer to that . Which is very often the case.

Fun seems to us te most important aspect of a workout, and I think using a "fixed" HR really makes no fun out of a group ride and group dynamic.
We try to encourage peole to do teh specific intensity workouts for themselve and use teh group rides for the so called " uncontrolled functional workouts" which are very important as well.
There is a difference how often you ride together.
In the classical group rides we have workouts perhaps 1 - 3 times per week.. If you workout 10 hours per week and you have 1 - 2 group rides with 2 - 4 hours per wekk , you can easy take one , where you just enjoy the feeling of teh group and the push to the limit . the other one you may just like to have some specific ideas like RPM in a slower group to ride with , or high intensity in teh hill andhanging in the draft in the flat.
So many many options to have fun and benefit from group rides.
What we see in all this years is as so often the trend to a "believ " versus understanding approach and it is than more a kind of a fanatic . "religious like" war and is even title in books like that ( the training bible ).
That's where we loose the objective openness towards further improvement and possible bery nice combinations of teh strenght of each philosophy.
I joined this very great Forum exactly out of that reason , to leanr and see discussions and problems , when we use one or the other idea to excess and I am very positive surprised, how fast we come so far to have this discussion now and I am sure we will leran from each other.
So please sorry again , if I missed a question and I will try to answer as good as possible.
Suggestion:
How about a special thread with questions to me , as A. Coggane is doing on our Forum as he answering all our questions there. Thansk so much for the opportunity you give to Rob adn therefor to us to explain our ideas and give feedbacks so we can learn and develop better and more individual ideas.
Cheers Juerg

[Toks]

Juerg mate, you're going to need to learn to send shorter replies and actually respond to the points that have been made. Quoting what someone has said would really help!!!!Your posts are way too hard to follow put simpl y- too bloody long. Keep it simple dude

[Paul H]

[quote]In the classical group rides we have workouts perhaps 1 - 3 times per week.. If you workout 10 hours per week and you have 1 - 2 group rides with 2 - 4 hours per wekk , you can easy take one , where you just enjoy the feeling of teh group and the push to the limit .

[Marek]

So from what I have read I think that Jeurg is agreeing that trying to ride at a low level heart rate whilst in a group is a bit overkill. Although Rob H seems to think that riding at the same heat rate all of the time is important to him, I just don't see the benefit from not letting your heart rate spike for a few minutes or so on the small hills on the club run so that you remain with the group.

I am not saying don't ride in a group that has a lower heart rate/speed if thats your training preference, what I am saying is why bother slowing down on the hills to the degree that you lose the natural rhythm of a group and end up riding about on your tod.

Have fun whatever you decide to do, love and peace man.

Cheers

Marek

[Michelle]

My thoughts on this one are.....to keep out of it. But.

Thanks, Toks, for your concern, I appreciate it because you have been so supportive and so encouraging, to me and to everyone who races and TT's and competes at any cycle sport at any level in this club.

I am setting down an endurance base, and in a few weeks time, the riding around and looking at the birds and the trees and the cows will reduce. And the angry face will come out, to match the interval training, the speed work, the hill sprints....when the sweat will start to flow.

You guys should try not to be so rude to each other, each person has the right to their own opinions, no matter how frustrating it makes you feel. Paul I don't think there is any FaCT fundamentalism here, it's just that Rob is the only one we have to translate the ideas so there is a lot of back and forth and a lot of explaining.

I know folks out there don't wish that those doing the LBP-20 training fall flat on their faces, but if things don't work out for me and I am not getting the results, then me and my coach will change the training plan. That's all there is to it.

[Juerg FaCT]

TOK
thanks for your input . Yes you are right and true, it would make an answer much easier as so much is just black and white anyway. ( selective reading )
I will try to follow your advice and for sure will try to answer your questions straight forward ( I promise ) one small sentence to be just straight forward and clear .
Have a great weekend.
Juerg

[Toks]

[quote="Juerg FaCT"]TOK
thanks for your input . Yes you are right and true, it would make an answer much easier as so much is just black and white anyway. ( selective reading )
I will try to follow your advice and for sure will try to answer your questions straight forward ( I promise ) one small sentence to be just straight forward and clear .
Have a great weekend.
Juerg

[George]

[img]http://leerburg.com/Photos/dogattack.jpg[/img]keep it up guys this is great fun, I'm sitting here in my Armchair or is that on the fence
[img]http://redbrickblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/sitting-on-the-fence.jpg[/img]

[Toks]

[quote="Michelle"]My thoughts on this one are.....to keep out of it. But.

Thanks, Toks, for your concern, I appreciate it because you have been so supportive and so encouraging, to me and to everyone who races and TT's and competes at any cycle sport at any level in this club.

I am setting down an endurance base, and in a few weeks time, the riding around and looking at the birds and the trees and the cows will reduce. And the angry face will come out, to match the interval training, the speed work, the hill sprints....when the sweat will start to flow.

[Ian A4size]

relexion? try pressing the "f" key...... ....a pedant writes......

[Ian A4size]

there could be a "flect" in there as well...... a vino'd pedant replies.....

[Toks]

[quote="Ian MunneryA1size"]relexion? try pressing the "f" key...... ....a pedant writes......

[Toks]

[quote="George"]keep it up guys this is great fun, I'm sitting here in my Armchair or is that on the fence

[George]

[quote]It would really spice things up if I reprinted some of the PM's I've received

[quote="Toks"][quote="George"]keep it up guys this is great fun, I'm sitting here in my Armchair or is that on the fence