OK, a penny for your thoughts...

[kieran]

must admit I quite liked Ken's idea of cycle highways leading to the city centre. Having cycled abroad etc problems in London are:

road network is old twisted and often narrow - can't do much about this though
road traffic flow is completely car centric (one way systems etc)
Attitude of drivers with regards to speeding
Attitude of cyclists to red lights/ zebra crossings
speed limit is too high on minor roads in residential areas
linking of quiet roads/routes together
law with regards to children and cycling - illegal for anyone to cycle on the footpath this includes the 5 year old on the barbie bike. So the only experience most grow up with is cycling in parks and don't experience cycling as a viable form of travel.
Train company hostility to bikes,
Bikes not allowed on DLR or Tram (or buses)
Lack of safe secure sheltered bike parking facilities at stations, in town centres etc.
ASLs not enforced.

The list is long.

[Jon H]

[quote="Antloony"]A 20mph limit in urban areas will never work. How will it be policed? I'ts hard enough getting people to stick to a 30mph limit, theres no way they'll go down to 20mph and obey it religiously. I ride through a 20 mph zone quite often at bang on 20 mph and I'm always getting over taken.

[Tamar]

Speed humps - bl**dy nightmare - get rid of them! This morning was good example of how dangerous they are even for not-very-fast cyclists. I turned right into a road with speedhumps and the car in front of me began to accelerate away. Then with no warning the car braked and swerved towards the kerb. As we were outside a school this is not uncommon behaviour (sudden parking manoevres with no indicating) so I was half-prepared for this and smoothly moved out and began to overtake them....at which point they swerved back right, nearly taking me out and then beeping their horn at me when they final spotted me glaring in their wing mirror. Turns out they weren't parking at all but for some bizarre reason swerving into the kerb so that one of their precious little wheels would go over a slightly lower section of hump. They then did that annoying 30mph/10mph jerky driving thing, forcing me to brake as we approached each hump. The faster you're going the worse it is unless you're able to go fast enough to actually overtake them...but then they get in frenzy until they can overtake you again.

Stupid concrete bits in the middle of the road are a bl**dy liability too as cars do not let you pass but try to squeeze through next to you. Ajay and RV have both been taken out by buses and vans doing this. There's a very annoying one on my route home from work on a hill so I'm doing about 6mph and it's right opposite a junction so I'm trying to go straight on and cars are either trying to overtake me and go straight on or overtake me and turn left and it's just a bl**dy nightmare. One tried to overtake Keith and actually hit the concrete bit 'cos there wasn't enough space. Thank god he didn't hit Keith!

Another particularly stupid narrowing has been introduced on my route to work with a bike lane up one side (one way) and a car bit on the other (two way but light controlled so only one stream of traffic at a time). I only use that route on my way to work so end up against the bike lane and having to wait at the lights for my turn to go through the two-way bit...which is often blocked by cars still coming up the way as the route is barely wide enough to get a car through so they have trouble turning into it at the bottom. I really don't see how this makes things safer as it just makes people impatient and irritable.

Good bits of cycle-way....hmm....OK..there's a nice cyclepath cut-through down the back of a school - can be a bit of a hazard as its next to a footpath and peds don't seem to be able to distinguish between footpath and bikepath...but on the whole a useful and pleasant bit of my ride to work.

Quite a few people at my work cycle in...some of them are relatively new to cycling and others more experienced. Some even use the bike to drop sprog at nursery then come to work - v good way of promoting cycling as transport for next gen. So I could ask them if they'd like to talk to you if that's any help?

If you want to see some fine examples of cycle paths then this is a good site: [url]http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/index.htm[/url]

[Andrew G]

Me, have an opinion, what on earth gave you that idea .

I won’t rant about RLJs etc because I don’t think it has any merit in this exercise due to the fact that road users should be obeying the rules regardless of their mode of transport.

The sermon according to ( )

For me the crux of the problem is that unlike a lot of other European countries we do not have a cycling culture which makes cyclists more of an “enemy” to other road users than is the case on the continent. This isn’t something which can be changed overnight or by any one legislation or traffic measure, but would have to be a gradual change in society. Anything that was forced, or appeared to be, would only lead to resentment.

I’m not in favour of 20mph zones as being a car driver as well it is not always that easy to stick to a speed as slow as 20mph in a modern car and I would rather motorists were doing 30mph and paying attention to the road than doing 20mph while staring at their speedo, which I think there would be a danger of happening.

Equally I would not advocate priority left turning at junctions / lights as I think it works in some continental countries as they have the cycling culture I mentioned. In this country I think it would only serve to further rile motorists against cyclists which is the opposite of what I would hope to achieve.

I would not say that all “cycleways” are poor. For example the one that runs down Gravel Hill and then left through Addington Village and along the Mad Mile is well thought out and can keep cyclists (should they wish) away from the traffic on very busy and dangerous roads.

The problem as I see it is that there is no co-ordinated approach to the instillation of cycle lanes and the how/why/where of their position and use.

On my commute I often do not use them as where they exist they are poorly placed. On a lot of UK roads the cycle lanes are limited to their width by the width of the single carriageway, this in turn makes the cycle lane too narrow and is then full of drains, often sunken.

Also when traffic builds up, as it does in rush “hour” when I commute I overtake traffic and pass on their right. This is far safer as it is where motorbikes are passing and motorists are expecting vehicles to be there more than on their inside.

I also think it is worth noting that it is easy to vilify the motorist but in a lot of instances there are many things to be considering and be aware of in traffic, including vehicles such as motorbikes passing on the right, to also be fully aware of a cyclist passing in and out of the other blind spot on the inside. I know as a motorist myself that it is highly unlikely that we that also drive cars could put our hands up in complete innocence of never having had a “that was close” moment. That is bearing in mind as cyclists we are also on the lookout for them more, and is worth thinking about next time the gallows is being called for after an accident.

I would be in favour of a further push through driving instruction and advertisements for drivers to be predictable and stick to rights of way. Some of the close shaves on a bike occur when the motorist is actually trying to be considerate to something overtaking and moves in whilst in a traffic jam, therefore closing the gap for the cyclist that may be on their inside.

In summary the main issues as I see them are:
1) A lack of a cycling, or cyclist aware culture on UK roads.
2) A lack of a co-ordinated and centrally controlled approach to cycle lanes and the cyclist as an equal traveller.
3) An appreciation of all other road users by all parties. A lot of commuting cyclists are the worst offenders and instigators in the animosity to cyclists by their behaviour and lack of visibility through riding “stealth”. I don’t care if someone wants to get their face smeared across the road by not having lights and jumping red lights at junctions. I care about their wellbeing as much as they clearly do, I do care that they turn reasonable and considerate motorists against other cyclists through their actions.

Most issues apart from 1 & 2 above tend to stem from either a lack of obeyance of the rules of the road by either motorists or cyclist, which can not be factored in to the right or wrong of cycleways etc as you then advocate the breaking of those rules. It is the rules that need to either be enforced or made to be something that people look down upon rather than treat as the norm and therefore repeat themselves. Additionally there is an inconsiderate and selfish attitude to other road users prevalent in society which creates constant “battles”, be it between cyclist and cars, or cars and buses, etc.

Here endeth the lesson.

Well you did ask .

[Marek]

Adam, I would look at the work that they have done in Holland and in Denmark. If you go to either of these countries the cycle network is integral to how the transport system works. Everybody has a bike, in fact I remember the Danes saying that you did not ask people if they had a bike, you asked them how many.

I think there is a story about Holland in relation to how they built the network and housing etc. I think people are all congregated in areas that are within in cycling distance of their work. I don't know the ins and outs of why it is so popular and how they did it in Holland, but am sure if you did a bit of surfing you could find out. Using those countries as an example of where it works would probably be good comparators and it may give you some answers as to why it would not work in London for example.

Have fun.

Cheers

Marek.....

[mlocke]

What about train tracks??

At the side of most rail lines there is more than enough room for a path to be built with enough room for cyclists.

In addition as most people, around london anyway, travel to work on train these people would all have access to them.

With entrances and exits from the cycleway at stations your journey would be the same as the train journey except the mode of transport would be different.

Provided these were built in a decent way, well lit, clean (not full of crap to give me punctures) I would use them

[mrP(Boonen)VT]

Cambridge won an award for the most cycle friendly city last year, and they had a massive budget to improve things.

The problem that this then engenders - from my personal experience is that the motorists then expect ALL people on bikes to be (a) in the bike lanes and (b) riding at no more than 10mph. They have no concept of fast (well faster than 10mph!!) moving cyclists, and all the dangers associated with that.

Segregation is wrong as all it does is move the problem and not solve it.

Guru P

[Kevin Rynne]

Have to agree with most of Andrews’s comments, and in particular 20mph limit is a bad idea. On my commute I regularly go faster than 20mph and any place there are 20mph limits the roads are full of speed bumps, which are a nightmare. On my 12-mile journey I don't use a single cycle lane, as they are either full of glass, parked cars or far too dangerous.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this but I think that the driving test in this country should be much harder and people should be retested regularly.

[Mike I]

[quote]Segregation is wrong as all it does is move the problem and not solve it.

[mrP(Boonen)VT]

I'm all in favour of that...

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