Ice! Ice! Baby

[Paul H]

Nonna Rosas was closed.

Well said Marek.

I think we were the only other group going to Charlwood so slower riders had little choice. The slip road at Rusper where the CR normaly joins the dual carriageway was white so there was no chance that group was going to stay upright even if it got past the bust water main. If there was a burst water main on a A road, there would be a good chance it would have been dealt with straight away. There are of course other dangers cycling on main roads though.

I didnt see the usual VC pre ride meeting this morning which was probably a mistake.

[Nick W]

Sorry to see this story and I hope everyone is ok.

I would have headed out with Steve's group but was too busy gassing. A lucky escape so it seems. I always enjoy the cafe stop so opted out of Andrew's alternative and went with Pete and a biggish group over Farthing Down. Newbie Thomas (who was strong over Farthing Down) then had a puncture on Church Lane (Chaldon). We then headed up Hilltop Lane where we very soon started to encounter ice and had a very frosted/hairy run off the north Downs and over the M25 to Merstham.

At that point Pete and the group turned left towards Bletchingly and Noel and I bailed out to head down the A23, straight through Redhill and down the A217 to the cafe. It was nice to stretch the legs on frost free main roads with a sort of two man through and off (?).

At the cafe I was a bit concerned to see only training group elements left so there was no choice but to enjoy a blast back to Coulsdon (I hasten to add that I was hanging on and wimpering rather than blasting) up the A23 for a hot drink in Nero.

I saw some of the main Pete group coming south on the Brighton Road. Where did you guys all get to then?

[Keith]

[quote="Nick W"]Where did you guys all get to then?

[quote="Keith"][quote="Nick W"]Where did you guys all get to then?

[Dombo]

[quote="Marek"]mlocke, the point is that some people in that group may not have known about experiences that other members may have had down that exact road in the past due to icy conditions. If they had known then maybe they would not have blindly followed the more experienced riders that do know the risks on that road. And why you would want to take that risk in the first place seems a bit strange to me. There are other roads that lead to the cafe which have a much lower ice risk. Which is why Andrew Green and Paul Hones groups both stayed upright. Why risk an injury and a possible messed up season and a broken bike

How about this scenario, you are new to the club, you go on the club run and you fall off due to ice. You then find out that in the last few years there have been accidents on the same road in cold icy conditions, I reckon you might be a bit annoyed about the route your club took you down. Fine if you know the risk, but how many people blindly follow the leader on the club run, probably a fair few. This is about being safe and not taking people into high risk situations, which is what you did today. It sounded like you were lucky no one was badly injured like last year.

DON''T GO DOWN THAT ROAD IN THESE CONDITIONS

[Amy]

Funny, I didn't have quite so much problems with icy conditions when I was riding with the CTC - maybe the extra weight, heavier tires and the slower pace helped.

To be honest, Steve's group was unlucky - if there hadn't been a water main burst we probably wouldn't be having this smugger than thou conversation - (light bikes, higher speed and skinny tires probably didn't help). After all, Pete's group went over Farthing Down through to Chaldon on those little lanes that I thought would've been icier than others I know.

[Steve W]

Well said Amy,

It was a great ride with Steve B on Saturday despite the tumble. I think we would have been fine if we had got past that point as I cannot think
of any other points where the road is so rutted with the sun blocked by the trees. I think we where all lulled into a false sense of security
by the running water.

Sorry we missed everyone at the Cafe as we ended up doing an extended dual carriageway ride. a good 60 miles in the winter sunshine
was well worth coming out for even if I picked up a couple of bruises on the way

[Mulberry]

As an outsider occasionally looking in I have to fully agree with Marek. I recall the time a couple of years ago when ACC sadly seemed to have a crash on average every week for at least one of their riders for a period of almost 3 months - mainly on the club runs. Likewise ACC has fallen foul of the ice regularly in the past - once with over 15 people falling off as they rode over a patch of ice which had already taken out a smaller ACC group earlier who were riding back the other way!!

Whilst you could say that Steve B was unlucky to fall off there, they would have almost definitely fallen off somewhere else - don't forget they slipped on ice within 500 yards of leaving the main road, so it wasn't as if they had the chance to ride along out other roads further along the route. Particularly when you're in a group it is too risky to ride on untreated rural roads. I also have to agree that if the others in the group knew of the crash rate on ice for ACC then they would probably not have happily followed Steve.

We in the Paragon don't tend to ride on the minor roads when it's icy and will often cancel the whole road ride and do an MTB ride instead. We've had a few falls in our time as well - as have most other clubs. The key thing is to learn from your mistakes and don't keep repeating them!

Get well soon to those who fell off and I hope the repairs are straightforward.

Marcus

PS - I know that Redhill CC has become very concerned about the ride leader's responsibilities / liabilities when leading a ride and one thing springs to mind...what if somebody was seriously hurt then later discovers that the ride leader knew that route was often subject to ice and the club had fallen off their before yet ignored this evidence and the advice of his peers. The seriously hurt party could then phone up a "no win, no fee lawyer" and try to sue the ride leader. You would find yourself in a right kerfuffle then and this hypothetical scenario has caused Redhill massive debate.

[jon avery]

A lot of people on here seem to be blaming Steve, let me put an end to all this, it seems several people think there were several new riders following Steve blind into the unknown, NOT the case it was a group of 8 riders all who have been in the club for a considerable length of time. We all knew the route and the conditions, should we have stuck to main roads? Maybe, but whats done is done, Have you noticed not one person from the group is complaining.

[Amy]

Oh let's see - I came off on ice on Boxing Day - on the flippin' cycle path where it goes round the roundabout just after the railway bridge out of CSS. I had hoped it was slushy but it wasn't and in effecting a stupid manouvre such as brake and turn off the ice at the same time it didn't work... Just an embarrassing slow motion keel over...

Let's stop obsessing over this incident - yes,it is icy and people will come off now and again. I know we can't stop someone trying to take a leader to court but I bet the CTC and the BC would be fighting in our corner as such a thing would have a hell of an impact on club riding. As far as I know, someone's probably tried it on already.

We just need to exercise discretion and caution; ride slower, further apart, smaller groups etc, etc. And we make sure that everyone is happy with taking the risks.

In fact a car probably could've skidded on that ice patch Steve's lot fell foul of...

Heading back to the bunker now...

Thanks Jon. The only people criticising were not even on the club run, let alone on our ride.

[quote="Mulberry"]Whilst you could say that Steve B was unlucky to fall off there, they would have almost definitely fallen off somewhere else

[Rob Q]

[quote]Oh yeah, and I stand down as a VC - dont need the stress.

[jon avery]

Hear! Hear! Don't stand down Steve, as Rob said you are an experienced rider who would be greatly missed as a VC, stick at it mate, don't let em get you down

[Steve W]

I second John Avery's last comment.

We need experienced vc's like Steve B who contribute on a regular basis as the addiscombe is such a large club.

As one of those that hit the deck i have no complaints and would like to point out that this was a freak
event brought about by the burst watermain, and that we did all slow as we approached the dip and all know
that bit of road has its hazards with potholes, gravel and blind bend.

One of the reasons I decided to go with this group was that I was concerned about Pete's ride being largely on
narrow lanes with some fast decents and less familiar road surfaces, so in the event it was simply bad luck.

So lets not lose a valuable vc because of some self rightuous comments from people who where not there.

[Mulberry]

Steve B I was not wanting to criticise you and I understand that your fellow riders all chose to join you at their own risk. I only wanted to back up Marek's warning and advice really. Unfortunately the side roads in the country and in town are all icy at the moment and we all need to take care.

I hoped my comments would create interest and raise awareness of the risks invovled. If these comments, together with your account of the ride prevents others from crashing than so much the better.

Marcus

PS - there was a huge run of crashes both on the ACC CRs and riding to and from them a couple of years ago. I was somewhat amazed at how many people were affected as detailed on the forum and clearly remember discussing it with some of people in ACC at the time. As I said you guys seem to have come through that and long may it continue.

Take Care and Enjoy the ride!