CR 30th January '10

[Mulberry]

Guys the only reason i said it is because believe it or not I care. I don't mind the flack you give me in return.

If you ride in a bike in a group on the road you are at some risk. If you factor in guaranteed ice then you only increase the risk, like driving without a seat-belt on. It all goes well until you hit the road, bang your head and end up rather ill! I would only urge you to minimise the risks and remember what Sylv said about their crash - it was lucky there were no cars behind (on the A23).

Like I said I'm not really bothered, but I dont' want to read about somebody being injured off a bike for life for the sake of making sure they ride on a day when the majority of people including the police were urging people not to ride. - viz Catford going down roads closed by the police!!

Sadly I fear you just don't get it. Please, please prove me wrong.

Yours concerned, Marcus.

[Rob Q]

[quote="marco"] We might not like what he's saying but when its sub zero we need to be clear whether we actively encourage people to come out or not. .

[Dombo]

I agree with Rob. We are all adults and make our own choices. Whether a newbie is champing at the bit to get out is neither here nor there, they are responsible for themselves.

I live on top of a hill that is never gritted. Experience tells me that if I hit black ice on either my road bike or mtb I am probably going down, and if in a group I'll take others with me. Experience also tells me that we haven't seen conditions like this in Surrey for well over 20 years, so a lot of drivers will be unaccustomed to driving appropriately. Put the two together and I was happier to take my chances on the mtb in the woods and leave the roads to others.

Each to their own, and as Phil Esterhaus used to say "let's be careful out there"

[Jon H]

[quote="Rob Q"]This is where its down to an individual to make up there own mind as we don't have any way of calling off a CR. Even if the Captain and VC's don't turn up, you will always find riders prepared to go out whatever the conditions.

[George]

I think Marcus was right to comment on our open forum about our clubrun because otherwise lessons will not be learnt.

He is not trying to point the finger at ACC he's just trying to help with an informative experienced eye.

I made the decision not to ride as I witnessed the roads in a very treacherous state, i'm amazed so many people decided to ride the CR on Saturday

[quote="Jon Hemming"][quote="Rob Q"]This is where its down to an individual to make up there own mind as we don't have any way of calling off a CR. Even if the Captain and VC's don't turn up, you will always find riders prepared to go out whatever the conditions.

[Hal]

I couple of years ago when new to ACC I would have accepted the risk and been ok with my decisions, measured on the level of risk I was willing to accept. I rode out on some beautiful frosty mornings. But I think my understanding of the risk has changed and in my view the risk out on the roads on days like Saturday is higher than I would like, especially if I can avoid it.

So my view is swinging, when the temp has been below 0 overnight and wet the day before it is best to find an alternative, be that going out on the trails or cleaning your fish tank.

We can still make up our own mind, but do be extra special careful if its Icy.

Hal

[Hal]

I think this is about experience, our personal experiances and human nature.

Once you have fallen off on the ice you may be more risk adverse about riding in icy conditions. Hopefully though we don't have to all learn the lesson ourselves, and can use others experiance to make an assessment of the risk.

It is human nature to think that we are fine as were ok last time it was icy, but we are centainly more suceptable to taking a tumble in these conditions, and that is what is trying to come through in this tread.

[Sylv]

This is exactly why on my way to Coulsdon that morning (after opting out of a mountain bike ride) I very nearly veered off for a solo ride doing the clubrun in reverse. For one thing I have less chance of coming off my own, and for another I don't want to get the blame if someone else in my group comes off, like it has been done on this place for another VC with the consequences we know.

But I had told someone that I'd be at CSS and alas that's probably what made me change my mind. Agree a "heads down" training group was probably not the best thing to do on that day, and for my part this was a lesson learnt. I can tell you I was kicking myself for going out on the way back, thinking my knee would be out of action for another month. But Marek's mate came across some black ice the previous weekend on a day when it was well over 5c here (I remember, it was my first proper ride in 3 months), so it's not quite as easy as drawing the line to sub zero temperatures is it.

The "everyone's an adult and can make their own decision" is all very well until someone decides to take action legally against the club, so I think it's not a bad thing the issue being discussed. Cheers Marcus

Oh and I'm back on the bike.

[Antloony]

As one of the riders involved in saturdays accident I will say this. If I decide to ride my bike, regardless of the conditions, then I will. If I come a cropper I only have myself to blame. No one is forced to ride, no one put a gun to my head, it was my decision and mine only. I don't come here to see my friends get wound up and belittled like they're 3 olds not capable of making a sensible decision for themselves. So I fell off, big deal, I fell off and had far more injuries last year on a boiling hot summers day with no ice in sight, sh1t happens.

No wonder this country is turning into a nanny state....

What is there to discuss. If people want to ride their bikes while juggling chainsaws whilst blindfolded and drunk who are we to stop them? The onus is on us as to go for a ride or not, I'd like to think we're all mature and wise enough to make our own minds up and should the consequences of our actions not be favorable then the blame lies solely on our backs, not with ACC or any of its members be they VC's or club members who happen to be sharing the same stretch of tarmac at any given time. That's how I see it and I'm damn sure the majority, if not all will, share my view.

[Robh]

As the first one to go down and bringing everyone else down you gonna cough up for the damage?

[Antloony]

Fcuk me its like banging your head against a brick wall around here with some people.

Well I was at the front of the group when it went down Rob, not had anyone beating a path to my door claiming it was my fault.

I'm getting off here before I say something I regret.

[Marek]

Ant,

I kind of see where you are coming from, but lets say that I came up to you before the club run and indicated to you that there was a high liklihood of their being ice on the roads and that you could crash. Would you be pleased that I warned you and therefore you could go home and put the bike on a trainer or do something else, or would you still take the risk and go and ride you bike on the roads that I had warned you were icy.

After your experience at the weekend, I am betting that you would go home.

What Marcus and I are trying to get across is that a number of riders at the weekend who wanted to ride took the decision not to ride because the risks of falling were too great. I took this decision because I do not want to increase the risks of a crash prior to the race season and bugger up the year etc. Now, was I just lucky that I made that decision or was it an informed decision. I will let you decide, but looking at the pictures posted, which is what EG looked like, I believe I made an informed decision, also the knowledge of it rained the day before.

I know you were unlucky etc, but these incidents are happening relatively frequently and we should look to try to avoid them by using our heads as opposed to our arses. If there is a way of forewarning people of the heightened risk then I think we should look at a way of implementing it. I am not talking about a full on risk assessment here, but maybe a way of warning people about the fact that after it has rained and it gets very cold ice forms and this has a negative effect on bicycles.

We just don't want to see riders falling off.

Cheers

Marek......

[Antloony]

Put the bike on a trainer...oh Marek you kill me at times....

I appreciate what your saying Marek, as with Marcus, though Marcus tone I thought was a little condescending though perhaps not meant that way.

Look, we all know rain followed by a cold snap over night will mean a high chance of ice, don't need to be Mr Fish to work that one out, but the conditions on saturday weren't that bad at all on the main roads and were improving by the minute. We in the TG have all ridden down the A23 due to a danger of ice being on the minor roads and have never had a problem before. What happened on saturday was purely down to bad luck as the road was clearing all the time and was 90% bone dry.

I chose this route as I didn't fancy the normal club run route due to the conditions. Twice recently I've stayed in bed of a sat morning due to the weather making it a danger to venture out.

I'd hate to see anyone hurt and I agree there are times when sense must prevail and a halt called to the club run but you wont stop everyone from venturing out so be it on their own heads if god forbid anything should happen to them.

[Dombo]

[quote="marco"] Dombo effectively saying "I'm experienced, I'm not going out on my road bike in that" .