CR 30th January '10

[Keith]

I think that Mulberry and others have raised some serious issues, not just regarding last Saturday.

Whether or not an individual rides their bike is down to personal choice. Absolutely right.

When ACC chooses to lead rides they have a duty of care. If a bad accident were to happen in the future, the relatives of an injured rider would rightly ask whether ACC had led people into unneccessary or reasonably avoidable risk. With so many recent incidents, is ACC correctly assessing risk, is it taking suitable care of its members?

[Rob Q]

[quote="Keith"]I think that Mulberry and others have raised some serious issues, not just regarding last Saturday.

Whether or not an individual rides their bike is down to personal choice. Absolutely right.

When ACC chooses to lead rides they have a duty of care. If a bad accident were to happen in the future, the relatives of an injured rider would rightly ask whether ACC had led people into unneccessary or reasonably avoidable risk. With so many recent incidents, is ACC correctly assessing risk, is it taking suitable care of its members?

[Antloony]

Beat me to it Rob. Every time we sit on a bike and pedal down the road there's risk. I would say there's more chance of getting knocked off by one of the idiots in a car we encounter on a club run on a regular basis than there is slipping over on a patch of ice.

I strongly believe the emphasis should be placed entirely on an individuals shoulders with regards to whether they opt too ride with the club or not. Yes perhaps a VC has a duty of care but that can only stretch so far, you can't expect them to do a risk assessment, what if they call it wrong. Perhaps there should be statement made to that effect, that VC's are in no way responsible for personal injury caused by weather, road conditions or any 3rd party.

We have to be sensible here guys or we'll all end up leaving CSS one by one with a minutes interval in between

[Antloony]

[quote="Dombo"]And all because somebody slipped on some ice.....talk about butterfly's wings

[LeeS]

Your 3rd party ins. covers everybody but yourself. It would be a good idea to have personal accident ins. , which as I am self employed I have, and costs about £5 a month. Could be money well spent.

[spike]

[quote="Sean Hogan"]Hi Simon,

First things first, can you pls change your username to a real one, like Simon for example. Cheers


S.

[quote="Antloony"][quote="Dombo"]And all because somebody slipped on some ice.....talk about butterfly's wings

[Alex P]

Interesting mindset creeping through here - imagine the scene:

100 riders arrive at CSS which has been suitably fenced off just in case a pedestrian gets knocked down by a rider. The Chief Risk Aversion Officer (formally Club Captain) draws together his Health and Safety Officers (formally VCs) clad in full high viz gear to discuss the day's ride. Reports of the weather along with road condition reports from advanced drivers who have driven the route measuring road temperature and moisture. So far so good, the signed disclaimer forms are collected with a check of everybody's insurance certificate, the St John's ambulance is ready to go but wait..... a last minute report....wet leaves on a bend that riders might use as a short cut.......sorry Club Run cancelled.....

Sounds a bit dramatic but consider, egg and spoon races, conker fights and British Bulldog are all banned from schools; school fetes and sports days all have to be risk assessed before given the go ahead - the future of club runs are looking bleak...

[color=#0000BF]On a more serious note:[/color]

Ride leaders - do we have ride leaders? We have VC's but at the end of the day we have no jurisdiction or control of what riders do and they do not lead, organise not lead.

Care of Duty / risk assessments - who would do these, what qualifications/training would they require, what would they base their assessment on, what if they are not available on the day?

We should not have ridden when it was icy - really..are we not capable of making that decision ourselves or are you saying we are sheep and have to be told what to do. I notice that those that were most negatively vocal were not even there on the day.

The Addiscombe cycling club and its Officers are fully covered against liability and supported by British Cycling who have a team of lawyers that deal with litigation of this sort day in day out so those so inclined - sue away. Frankly if that is your mindset then really I really do not want to ride with you.

[color=#0000BF]On an unpleasant note:[/color]

There have been some personal criticisms made against a much respected member of ACC on this thread (sorry I think that this was on another thread) whose contribution would be greatly missed if he stepped away. Some of these comments have come from somebody who is not even an ACC member as wasn’t even there. We have an open and vibrant forum and that is its strength but I think that this kind of thing is disgraceful.

[color=#0000BF]Remember[/color]

We take responsibility for our own actions
We do not force you to go on the club runs
There is risk in everything we do
Cycling is dangerous - doh

[jon avery]

On an unpleasant note:

There have been some personal criticisms made against a much respected member of ACC on this thread whose contribution would be greatly missed if he stepped away. Some of these comments have come from somebody who is not even an ACC member as wasn’t even there. We have an open and vibrant forum and that is its strength but I think that this kind of thing is disgraceful.

Remember

We take responsibility for our own actions
We do not force you to go on the club runs
There is risk in everything we do
Cycling is dangerous - doh
Alex P
live on this board 24/7!!!

The best reply yet!!!

[mlocke]

If anybody falls off ban them from the club!! They clearly cannot ride a bike!!!

I bet I fall off this week.






By the way incase anybody takes his comment seriously.......... It is a joke.

[Keith]

Mention assessing risk and people immediately think of training courses and banning conkers.

Assessing risk is what we all do, all of the time. No forms, no training courses, no guarantees, just life experience.

Wiley old cyclists will always decide for themselves, but ACC prides itself on being a club for riders of all standards. As a club, be it Captain, VC, ride organisers, call it what you will, we are in a position of authority. People put a degree of trust in the Addiscombe led rides. We therefore assess the risk of riding any particular day not only for ourselves, but for others as well.

[jon avery]

Keith that may sound good on paper, but take for example we are about to go on a cub run, the tempature is cold but the roads are clear of ice and snow, then whilst on the ride you come across a patch of ice caused by a burst pipe or something simular, how can you account for that? You cannot risk assess the unknown.

[quote="Sean Hogan"]Ah indeed.

[quote]There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

[Grahame]

The fact that we have research scientists still involved in "big science" research projects is a bit of a clue...

[Dombo]

[quote="Sean Hogan"]How do you know?