The key component to Road Racing: LT?

[Marek]

Ok, so I think I kind of get it. Maybe you are trying to say, you would not build a block tower with just one stack going up for a while and then trying to put more stacks on the top, you would spread your stacks out and build up gradually so that you can get taller without falling down.

I don't tend to get the issue of overtraining anymore as I don't do enough, I used to get more colds etc when I commuted to work, I don't get those anymore, but then again I am less fit.

The last couple of days I have started to build in some lower intensity workouts and started to use my hrm again. What I have noticed is my heart rate does seem to react very quickly as soon as I start exercising and on the exercise bike in the gym I was only knocking out about 187 to 200 watts at 70% of my maximum heart rate (dont know how accurate gym bike is) which I don't think is that great. So I was thinking, if I maintain a lower level of intensity and try to do this more regularly, will I be able to improve the watts I give out at 70% without having to enter into upper zones as often as I have in the past?

Another thing I noticed was I actually felt quite fatigued after doing half an hour in the gym today at the 70% rate, could have been other things, but it does feel more tiring to ride slower than faster. Is this again due to the fact that I am used to riding fast all the time and have accustomed my body to riding at a faster rate.

Another example of this could be the Marmotte (bad memories). Here I took it very easy, not my usual riding style, I suffered like a dog quite early on into the ride and as the ride went on I just got worse and worse. I think if I had gone out fast and just gone for it I probably would have been fine. Does that make sense or am I talking nonsense? I think I was fit enough has had trained pretty hard and had done a pretty good ride in the Dragon ride in Wales a few weeks earlier, although the climbs were a bit easier.

Cheers

Marek....

[Juerg FaCT]

Hey Paul . I will try to get the graphs up on here. But here short the idea.
We did first a full step test with a case , where we "loaded" the person with high carb food over three days ,
Than we did the same test where we depleted the person of carbs and just had a protein diet.
Than we compared the different informations with wattage as an objective info on physical performance. The result will be posted as soon I know how to but graphs on this site.

But here another interesting question in this ongoing discussion on wattage as an objective way of zoning ?
You state , that the tests would have to be done under the same situations ?

Hmmm how many times if somebody uses wattage is the situation the same prior to a training.
Could it be ,that on some days you may had food 2 hours before with little carbs and than on another day you had no food at all and in a third situation you had a day rest before the workout.
Is that always the same starting point physiologically for the fixed wattage zone workout which may follow ? Is there may be a difference between a human body and a car and therefor a difference in wattage as a physical info to biomarkers like HR/lactate and others as a part of a physiological info ? Just a question not a statement .
Could it be , that 100 % wattage under test conditions are not always 100 % wattage in real field conditions.
Could it be that 220 wattage on the bike on the road is different than on an indoor trainer.( Due to additional muscle activity in the core area and stability activity. Watch during a test with Rob and the bioharness , what is happening on the part of the activity readings . Thanks for the nice inputs.
Cheers Juerg
It is mnus 5 today and very nice and sunny so better get used , that there will be snow here soon and little time to chatt.

[Michelle]

Hey Marek,

I am going to put my two ha'pennorth in, probably because this is the only bit I think I understand well enough to write about

At the end of last week Keith was feeling the effects of going slower. He reported a distinct tiredness in the muscles, and he was yawning like crazy on Saturday night after having done 5 hours at LBP-20 last week. I have only just started my winter training tonight so will let you know.

I suspect this reaction is because he was training his fat delivery system? Possibly because he was using his muscles in a different way, just rolling along rather than pushing them? Maybe because the zone he was triaining in was the slow twitch fibre zone, not the fast twitch fibre zone that Keith (and you) normally train in.

All the training books I have read already talk about the benefits of aerobic training- and by that I mean training at a slower or lower level. These benefits are; more mitochondrial grown, therefore the abilbity to produce more energy. Mitochondria also take away lactic acid - nice little cylindrical benefit that means you can push harder. Aerobic training means more capillaries grow in the muscles so more oxygen and fuel can get to the cells. Also the liver increases in size and density, and it increases it's capacity to store glycogen. And if you are training aerobically, you are training in the zone that uses mostly fats as fuels, so you potentially lose weight. I know you may be interested in this as you are forever saying you are too large for hill climbing .

And FaCT also talks about these benefits as well; it's not like the benefits of this type of training aren't already documented everywhere.

But true aerobic traning appears to be below the point where lactic acid is becoming too prevalent in the muscles for it to be taken away - ie below your lactate balance point. This is why we are all talking about LBP-20. LBP is very different to lactate threshold, which is basically your all out TT pace for about 30 minutes.

I think Juerg means, you should try and get more power by 'growing' more fibres, and the way to do that is by doing more structural training (ie the LBP -20 above). Because if you just do functional training (ie train really hard at a really hard pace) you will only ever be abe to use that which is already there, you will not be able to 'grow' anything new.

Also by doing the structural training, you are less likely to break down. If you just do the functional stuff you are more likely to overtrain, or injure yourself, or pick up colds because the functional training is pushing you really really hard and your body does not like that. It's too much stress.

(That is not to say that you can grow more fibres, he was using it as an example.)

Please correct me if I am wrong, Juerg or Rob or if anyone else wants to pitch in feel free.

Ps don't know why you suffered like a dog in La Marmotte, perhaps someone else has an idea?

[MattI]

So, if all this LBP-20 riding actually allows you to bring into play more muscle fibres and hence expands your engine, so to speak, then we are really back to the old school winter training of long slow distance riding (base) which racing cyclist have been doing since the year dot. However, you presumably need to do a ton of this long slow distance riding for it to appreciably increase your engine. And therein lies the rub, as the Bard would say.
Most of us don't have that amount of time.

....or have i missed something here?

[Marek]

Yes Ram, that is the bit I am missing so far, how much of the LBP -20 do you have to do to actually see benefits. I am hoping to be surprised that it is the same amount as doing the more intense training. It is just that you add the intense bit nearer the time of racing? It does just sound like good old fashioned winter training.

Michelle, interesting Keith is feeling that way as I have only done a couple of hours at the lower rate and am surprised how tired it makes me feel after the event. So, it is obviously doing something.

What I think I will do is try to do this LBP training during the week and then maybe mix it up a bit more at the weekend, so one week go hard and fast with the training group and then the week after do a longer slower ride taking in some more varied terrain and just having a bit of fun on the bike.

Cheers

Marek....

[Keith]

[quote="Ramanujan"]....need to do a ton of this long slow distance riding ...

[Juerg FaCT]

Hey Michelle great job , can I hire you as my secretary for translation . You are great and very nicely summarized. wowww
How long and how many hours LBP training and below . We don't know, but that's why we test in different way to see p[ossible changes in te bodies reactions.
Why more tired if not used to STF. Well one reason is, that trainng in the STF zone on the upper level , which is often but not always on teh brink from STF to FTF is actually the stronger stimmulus , than going a bit faster in teh FTF zone for mitochondria stimmulation. Wht . Well overload . If you burn in an optimal energy with a big part of fat involved, you actually need more O2 to be able to keep up with ATP production.
See RQ. Now once you move faster your body will switch to FTF on the lower end of teh zone, which is easier for the body to creat ATP , as it is more efficient to use glucose and O2 than fat and O2. So the key is to have this optimal intensity for the maximal O2 demand which is not ( NOT ) in the FTF zone.
How much for Marek . You are on the right track same hours for the moment as you did hard and use a ratio 10 :90 or 20 : 80 for FTF;STF so example 6 hours per week so you do 1 hour or one unit hard on LBP and above and 5 h easy on STF / FTF zone limit which may be or not LBP - 20 that's where you may need an initial test.
Hey Michelle translate for me in proper english . You will win a canou trip through the canadian wilderness but only when you are a slower runner than me , so if we have some Grizzlybears arround they can enjoy you first . Cheers Juerg and thank you tooall of you for the fair and open discussion on here.

[Robh]

Juerg send me the diagram to my email address and I will host on my image bucket account for you.

My finger is very sore at the moment finished test number 12 and I'm using a new lancet today, the Accue Check Soft Clix Pro. It's my first time using it and the needle got jammed and whilst checking what was wrong I hit the release button and it caught me finger and I was bleeding before even starting the test normally it's the person I test who bleeds....

Rob

[quote="Keith"][quote="Ramanujan"]....need to do a ton of this long slow distance riding ...

Hi Juerg

Welcome to the forum.

As you probably guessed, I enjoy a good hard training ride on Saturdays and am concerned that I will soon have to do this on my own as everybody else will be drifting along at 8mph. My main concern is that some people might think this sort of training is actually destructive. I am open to new ideas but need to understand them first.

I am of the belief that your body adapts to the stress you put it under and no more. i.e. if you go sunbathing in Switzerland, you will go a light brown even if you do it for 10 years. If you go to Spain, you have to make sure you dont get burnt, but you will get browner than you ever would in Switzerland in a matter of weeks. Like wise, if you ride at 200w, your body will adapt only enough to ride at 200w if you ride at 300w your body will adapt more. Why would muscles etc adapt diferently to your skin?

[quote]Hey Paul . I will try to get the graphs up on here. But here short the idea.

[Paul H]

Michelle

[quote]All the training books I have read already talk about the benefits of aerobic training- and by that I mean training at a slower or lower level. These benefits are; more mitochondrial grown, therefore the abilbity to produce more energy.

[quote="Paul H"]Michelle

[quote]All the training books I have read already talk about the benefits of aerobic training- and by that I mean training at a slower or lower level. These benefits are; more mitochondrial grown, therefore the abilbity to produce more energy.

[Marky Mark]

[quote="Robh"]Juerg send me the diagram to my email address and I will host on my image bucket account for you.

My finger is very sore at the moment finished test number 12 and I'm using a new lancet today, the Accue Check Soft Clix Pro. It's my first time using it and the needle got jammed and whilst checking what was wrong I hit the release button and it caught me finger and I was bleeding before even starting the test normally it's the person I test who bleeds....

Rob

[Robh]

Don't worry Mark, I got the hang of it in the end...That's why you lot are called guinea pigs.

[Toks]

I tend to train in zones 3, lots of Sweet spot and a little zone 4 all winter. Occassionally some 5 and a bit of a sprint every now and then. For me and lots of other "scientific trainers" those are the "best bangs for ya buck" aerobic trainng zones. No zone 1 for me I'd rather take the day off. Zone 2? I just ain't got the time or inclination to make it worth while on 7-10 hours weekly training time; so in effect zone 2 is commuting time. Good luck if thats where you're doing all your training this winter. I hope you've got lots of ehinacea and vitamin C available after all those five hour cold, fatiguing, steady plods.[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5192/sweetspot20adaptationsry4.jpg[/img][/url]