General Racing Discussion(ex-Norwood Paragon thread)

[Snoop Doug]

I think there's a lot of interesting stuff emerging here. To try and nail the lack of recognition or whatever at the dinner....I was asked to compere the thing with literally ten mins notice. Ideally I'd have done some prep but you see my problem I hope?? Also, generally the folk that get a name check @ such an occasion are the ones who are there to enjoy it. Otherwise, we could be there all night whooping up peeps who ain't there. We'll learn and improve on that front but please, enough on that front, I'm a sensitive soul

Personally I think we've focussed too much on growing in numbers and not enough on sustainability and involvement. The ACC feels to me a lot like something people turn up and use, which is good. But, it's now so large that it's become easy to just take, and not participate. The club is run by a handful of people, all unpaid volunteers. Strikes me that if the racers want to be heard more then they should get more involved in running and organising their bit. Race a tiny bit less and invest that time in making supporting ACC racing (and no I don't mean cheering from the roadside). Take some of your great ideas and make them happen.

I just got off me arse and got involved, no one asked me, I feel a sense of responsibility. It costs me dearly in bike time and honestly, when I see the lack of ownership for loads of these great suggestions, I ask myself, should I bother? I think I should - so should a few more. Many hands make light work.

Doh - just read Michelle's post (blush) and I take the point about feedback from the committee I commit to making that happen and in turn asking for suggestions on improvements. The catch? Well the improvements need owners - y'see??

Keep it coming folks and thanks for the idea Paul, good one. I've been thinking of doing an occasional news/update email so this is just the kick up the arse I needed.

More later

Snoop

[Keith]

[quote="my other half"]What about the committee actually reporting back to the club about what happened.

[Maria David]

Sounds like all good ideas coming up about how to get a strucuture going. I think the framework is already there. It's as Michelle said - it's very easy to write on the forum and then not put stuff into practice.
Normally, the committee members give reports on what various riders within their cycling remit/discipline have been up to at the committee meeting. (Or at least that's what they used to do when I was on it.) Maybe it's more about committee members really putting themselves out there and actively encouraging people - talking to the members in person more - pressing the flesh, so to speak - and making people feel that they too are good enough to have a go - it's not just about the really strong people or the ones who have the cojones to present themselves on the start line. From that, people are more likely to show up at practice sessions that are set up in the first instance. That's what tends to get people involved.

By the way, I wouldn't get carried away about London Dynamos having loads of women riders. Last season they had 3 riders that raced a full season - Charlotte Blackman, Rebecca Curley and Claire Beaumont. Naomi Anderson and Jenny Lloyd-Jones only did a few races, the latter being a time triallist. Antonia de Barton is a newbie who raced once last season. Kimberley Kabatoff has been practically off the racing scene since 2007. Susannah Osborne was only with Dynamos for a short period of time until she left and joined a sponsored club, then had to stop on health grounds. They have had their share of women come and go as well.

The Surrey League women's team was revived in 2008 at the behest of Charlotte Blackman - why, because when London Dynamo entered their women racers into the Women's Team series in the 2007 season Charlotte couldn't find 6 London Dynamo women riders who could do a full season of racing, and she ended up having to guest ride in other teams. (Addiscombe fielded a women's team in the Team Series in 2005, and we ran into similar problems, however we were able to have other local riders guest ride with us.) So, it's not all plain sailing for them. I think having 10 good women racers could be achievable for London Dynamos, but so far it has been a dream!

Btw, I'd be out riding but I have a gammy leg and I'm stuck on a windy plain on the North Sea coast, so would rather rest up, and wrap up warm

[Maria David]

Whoops - pressed the button twice !

[Snoop Doug]

[quote="Stu Merckx Man"]another point i thought of-

i dont think its helpful when we ask very good racers, with vast experience and knowledge to leave the club run if they dont join. they bring a lot to the club by just being around and accessible. ive lost count of the times dave Kennett has helped me out and given me advice, and i know he has not exactly been welcomed on occasion, and yet he has made it 100% clear to me that i would be welcome on the NP clubrun and not be expected to leave or join.

its hardly going to attract racing members both male or female if addiscombe has an attitude like that.

[Snoop Doug]

[quote="Stu Merckx Man"]and just a point to back up the point about addiscombe not supporting racing--- the rule that racing members must Marshall 2 events a year, based on the theory we 'take' more from the club....? that doesn't make sense to me, surely we are the ones giving the most back to the club, representing it, and doing it proud? it seems to me that it makes more sense to at least get some 'legislation' to get non racing members to marshall twice so that the addiscombe racers can actually RACE at the event we promote and perhaps do well, and the club proud. to me it almost seems comically rediculass to get racing members to marshal there own race.

the only thing racing members 'take' is some money for us to be affiliated with SL and allow us to race under BC (or something like that) ... but thats whats subs are for, and the money is there to be used....so i hardly call it 'taking'. its invested for the greater good.

[Toks]

Wow this is certainly a meaty debate. A lot of great points have been made so to save unnessary repetition I'll keep my comments to the racing side of things. Some of you may know that myself, Marek and Tim Harris left Addiscombe and rode for Mosquito's bikes for the 2007 season. We did this simply because we wanted to ride for a club that was more committed to racing. Well despite lots of free kit, the excitement of being on a new team etc it didn't work out. Personally I missed the commaradarie and support network you get from ACC. Also the idea of racing whenever I wanted rather than to a program appealed a lot more. So how do we get more ACC people racing?

Well for the last four years we've had the ACC club road race (the last three years promoted by Huw, myself and of course Guru P). I've got to be honest though the amount of people that it has inspired to go on and do Road Racing has been a little dissappointing. In a way its at odds with how excited and supportive we all get on the forum with both group ride reports and race reports. It seems to be a uniquely ACC thing Maria might disagree but think you get a lot of support at this club if you want to try TTing or RRing. The balance tends to favour TTing but even then given our huge membership not many people TT either.

People just aren't that interested in being competitive apart from in a one off sense. Part of the idea behind getting people to 'tell there goals' is to inspire others to committing to racing. I used to tease/cajole/motivate Steve B for ages until he finally gave RR ago and he's proved even with children it can be done. Last year how many people raced more than 15 times - not many. Will promoting more races help? Possibly - but who's gonna do it? Will selecting some races for all of us to sign up for help - again possibly? Anyways here I am five years at ACC and I've just grown to accept that the club is what it is. If you've got the time and commitment and you want to race in a 'proper' racing club - good luck to you. I personally will support you 100%. As for me I'll be staying with the ACC family. Its a little dissapointing at times when you're the only ACC member in a race but you'll get used to it, right Michelle

snoop said [quote]To try and nail the lack of recognition or whatever at the dinner....I was asked to compere the thing with literally ten mins notice. Ideally I'd have done some prep but you see my problem I hope?? Also, generally the folk that get a name check @ such an occasion are the ones who are there to enjoy it. Otherwise, we could be there all night whooping up peeps who ain't there. We'll learn and improve on that front but please, enough on that front, I'm a sensitive soul

[Marek]

Stu,

I kinda understand your frustrations, but I think you have to accept that Addiscombe is more about an inclusive club run ride where a wide range of abilities are catered for. Relative to a lot of clubs out there we actually have got quite a few that are interested and take part in racing. Also, we can encourage people to race, but if they don't end up doing it so what? Its personal choice, racing does mean you have to make a lot of sacrifices in life, it is quite a commitment especially to say no to the Krispy Kreme doughnut, I love those things. So, I don't think the numbers thing is that much of an issue. We do lots of other things as well as a club, think about the Marmotte, there were loads of Addiscombe riders on the Alps, (I wish I had not been one of them) which shows we have a thriving bunch of serious cyclists in our ranks.

Toks just gets a bit lonely as he loves to chew peoples ears off all the time, but he knows pretty much everyone in the peleton now so don't think it is too much of an issue when he is on his own. This year I think we will have a few in most races at least at the beginning of the season.

When it comes to Marshalling I disagree with you about racers not marshalling. We get to race at other clubs races throughout the whole year, who do you think Marshalls the races promoted by Mosquito Bikes or Norwood Paragon, its the racers. If we want to win a road race as a team, we should be picking one that we are not promoting. In a perfect world you would have everyone racing, but I don't think that is the case and I actually think we should marshall our own races.

Sponsorship of riders, financials etc, I seem to remember there being some issues around doing this. If you do this, you may attract people to the club for the wrong reasons in my mind. But I think if someone wants to race and is really struggling to afford it, then maybe the club should look to help them out. Means tested race fees. It would be a great shame to not help out those that want to race but literally cannot afford the races and all the different memberships you need.

I completely agree with you about inclusivity of riders from other clubs etc. We are riding on public highways, if someone ANYONE rocks up at the train station we have absolutely no right at all legally or morally to tell them to get knotted. Whether we like the individuals or not, we still have absolutely no right at all and if this has happened then I think it is awful. It sends out a really bad message that I would think most members do not want to be a party to, that is paramount to bullying.

Cheers

Marek....

[Snoop Doug]

Woohooo - this could win thread of 2009 and it's only January!!

Stu - I didn't think you were having a pop in fact I feel a bit of an ar5e for responding in the from my perspective only way that I did. Your point about recognition is well taken and we will do better.

Also - I think the marshals/helper piece might get easier this year as I intend to modify the rather labour intensive way I sorted stuff last year. Thanks for the input.

Toks - you keep doing what you're doing mate - you are defo encouraging more people to get out there and have a go. You've helped to motivate many, including moi .

Marek - nicely put geez, like the final piece in particular and given we are the agreeables I do think finding a better way is a must. Regards ex agreeables who have moved away to try (tri ) their hand at something else should feel welcome no?? However, there is the matter of safety to consider and we have had a couple of froot loops (just a couple) in the past plus newcomers just need to be given a bit of time to get comfortable.

In case anyone is interested the High School Musical parteh rocked. Musical bumps to Abba was nuclear and when the pinata came out I thought the place was gonna blow

Snoop

[Mulberry]

Well I'm intrigued to see the way this thread has developed. Maybe you should post it somewhere else and re-name it!

I have noticed in the past that your forum quite regularly throws up this kind of debate as members try to establish where ACC is going. I would point out that you have a fine selection of people and enthusiastic strong riders. There are two simple things you could do to improve racing and or riding in the club which I have pointed out to some of you before:
1 Organise regular club runs on several days during the week.
2 Appoint one or two racing secretaries who are prepared to co-ordinate and organise racing within the club.

It amazes me that a club of your size has only one run a week and it's on a Saturday! Almost every other club in the country has a lot more than that and they don't do the same route each Saturday. If you had an organised official ride every Sunday - possibly catering for 2 groups of different abilities - doing a selection of 4-6 different routes then you would quickly find more people attracted to this and it may make the Saturday ride less of a race as it quite often is. Likewise 2 training rides / sessions not neccessarily chaingangs during the week in Spring / Summer would provide a welcome addition and get the numerous ACC members who ride during the week out on the same rides.

All clubs have racing secretaries for different disciplines. I'm sure you do too, it is good if they can walk the walk and not just talk. That way they can get out lead the rides and help motivate and train the riders plus keep them in check. Whilst ACC may not be certain if it wants to promote racing. It is without doubt the racing cycliists who raise the standard of a club - simply because of their fitness and ability to ride neatly in a tight-knit fast-moving bunch. That is why Sportvies are often more dangerous than RRs.

In the Paragon it is the seasoned racers (not always the fittest) who tell us if we're out of line and they let you know if you can't hold a wheel or are riding dangerously. It is something we try to keep in check all the time and as we get bigger ourselves, it is crucial that we maintain this. If ACC raises the profile and standards of its racers then the likely knock-on effect is that this will trickle down and raise the level for the whole club making you all better cyclists and more importantly safer riders which is crucial.

I've probably said too much and may have spoken out of turn, although this thread was addressed to me :- ) I would be happy to discuss any of this with you, should you wish. Whilst we may be friendly rivals, we are all cyclists and we both ride on the same patch. Any changes you make can impact us, the Surrey League and cycling in Surrey so I am interested and that's why I've replied.

Good luck to you guys for the future, you have an enviable base to build on. So make the most of it!

Marcus

PS - hope the guys who hit the ice this morning are OK. It was lethal out there this morning. 'A' roads for us.

[Snoop Doug]

Thanks Marcus - very useful comments cheers

Snoop

PS the point about renaming and posting elsewhere is a good un too - wouldn't know how meself anyone?

[Andrew G]

[quote="Marek"]When it comes to Marshalling I disagree with you about racers not marshalling. We get to race at other clubs races throughout the whole year, who do you think Marshalls the races promoted by Mosquito Bikes or Norwood Paragon, its the racers. If we want to win a road race as a team, we should be picking one that we are not promoting. In a perfect world you would have everyone racing, but I don't think that is the case and I actually think we should marshall our own races.

[quote="Snoop Doug"]Thanks Marcus - very useful comments cheers

Snoop

PS the point about renaming and posting elsewhere is a good un too - wouldn't know how meself anyone?

[Mike I]

Not sure what I'm doing on a general racing thread, still less on the training forum, but here a few points to throw into the mix:

Marshalling - There's more than one way to do the club proud when putting on a race or TT. If an event is well-organised by friendly people, well marshalled and stocked with plenty of decent home-made cake, I come away with a positive feeling about the club involved. I don't necessarily feel quite the same about a club whose member has just won the event. Actually, I don't always hang around to find out who's won.

Recognition at the club dinner - Having been to similar functions in the past which have gone on and on (and on) with speeches and presentations, I thought the balance was about right. There isn't time to acknowledge everyone's achievements, and frankly it would make for a fairly dull dinner (especially for the partners - who I think were there in greater numbers than ever) if we tried. It wasn't just the road racers who got left out of the speeches.

Encouraging young people - One or two comments a tad unfair on Huw's sterling efforts, no?

What sort of club? I don't really buy into this 'not a racing club' thing. But I don't think we pretend to be just a racing club, we're more of an all-round club. Some will say that makes us a Jack-of-all-trades (master of none), but is that necessarily a problem? Sure, if I were a serious road racer or were really keen on thrashing up and down a dual-carriageway at stupid o'clock on a Sunday morning, other clubs might be better suited. Like most of our members, though, I would rather be in a club where I can do a bit of TTing, a bit of sportive riding, some foreign trips, some track and quite a lot of just riding around in search of cake - safe in the knowledge that there will always be a few others doing the same.